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Usdk · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:28 am

wotlk allstars imo.

Mns · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:20 am

Grimmgor wrote:

Aestu wrote:

Grimmgor wrote:

Aestu wrote:

But some of us have to blame nonsensical external factors and can't admit that perhaps we aren't as good at the game as we'd like to be...I don't know about you, but I certainly wish I was better than I am.

it isn't really blaming nonsensical factors. if you're wiping to a shadow trap, a defile, derps all stunning at once and putting the valks on DR, that isn't because the encounter is hard, that's raiders showing up without wearing their fucking helmets. none of those are hard mechanics to deal with at all, and those are the main reasons for a wipe other then your tank imploding in less then a second.

so no, the encounter isn't "omgsuperhard", it's getting people to not fall into a sudden coma and forget how to play the game for 15 minutes.

If the overwhelming majority of raiders can't do it, then it's hard.

no, it means they have brain aids. unless you're saying archimonde was also a hard fight, because that's all this is is another giant retard/afk check.

Archimonde was a hard fight due to Bucket Priest Retardation Syndrome.

I remember I made this for our non-Muffley shadowpriest.

Lucinth · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:15 pm

Mayonaise wrote:

Grimmgor wrote:

Aestu wrote:

Grimmgor wrote:

Aestu wrote:

But some of us have to blame nonsensical external factors and can't admit that perhaps we aren't as good at the game as we'd like to be...I don't know about you, but I certainly wish I was better than I am.

it isn't really blaming nonsensical factors. if you're wiping to a shadow trap, a defile, derps all stunning at once and putting the valks on DR, that isn't because the encounter is hard, that's raiders showing up without wearing their fucking helmets. none of those are hard mechanics to deal with at all, and those are the main reasons for a wipe other then your tank imploding in less then a second.

so no, the encounter isn't "omgsuperhard", it's getting people to not fall into a sudden coma and forget how to play the game for 15 minutes.

If the overwhelming majority of raiders can't do it, then it's hard.

no, it means they have brain aids. unless you're saying archimonde was also a hard fight, because that's all this is is another giant retard/afk check.

Archimonde was a hard fight due to Bucket Priest Retardation Syndrome.

I remember I made this for our non-Muffley shadowpriest.

Archimonde always did bring out bads.
But god damn it was fun to hear people rage.

Weena · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:29 pm

@ Mayo's Picture

1 - Saved for later uses.

2 - Pip Pip, Cheerio.

Mns · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:30 pm

I made a bunch of these back when I was a core raider in bucket.

Grimmgor · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:17 pm

Aestu wrote:

Grimmgor wrote:

no, it means they have brain aids. unless you're saying archimonde was also a hard fight, because that's all this is is another giant retard/afk check.

It is not the case that 99% of the people who play this game at the high end have brain aids. You may wish it were true - but it is not.

Let's look at it logically.
-How many retards in a raid would you say it takes to hold back a guild from a LK heroic kill week after week, up to the present? One, two, five, ten? How many do you raid with?
-Do you, personally, consistently put out WMO performance in line with the players of the top guilds that have completed the encounter?
-Tonight, or next time you raid the encounter, recount five sequential wipes here, and explain who caused the wipe and how. Is it a retard on each occasion?

-1. If one person DCs or forgets how to play this, you're going to die because it's built that way like Archimonde was. It isn't so much they're bad players, they just derfted, which as I said before is going to plague any guild that isn't the top 50.
-No, because our kills are slower and thus DPS isn't the same. I did in Ulduar for several fights.
-Probably, since we still have people who run into a shadow trap every night.

You know that all it takes is one or two people derfting around to fuck up an encounter. You raided with us for a while (albeit it was during my absence), and we're a run of the mill 200-300 guild. Every other guild in our area is the same way, and you're trying to act like every notable guild hasn't killed him, when they have.

ps Kel'Thuzad still the hardest according to the logic in this thread.

Laelia · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:43 pm

Grimmgor wrote:

ps Kel'Thuzad still the hardest according to the logic in this thread.

Wasn't the hardest part of that fight gearing and retaining (or recruiting) enough warriors in 4pc Dreadnaught to kill 4HM? If so, that doesn't speak to the difficulty of KT himself at all.

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:52 pm

Grimmgor wrote:

-1. If one person DCs or forgets how to play this, you're going to die because it's built that way like Archimonde was. It isn't so much they're bad players, they just derfted, which as I said before is going to plague any guild that isn't the top 50.
-No, because our kills are slower and thus DPS isn't the same. I did in Ulduar for several fights.
-Probably, since we still have people who run into a shadow trap every night.
ps Kel'Thuzad still the hardest according to the logic in this thread.

Kel'thuzard had no mechanic that would fuck over 40 people because of one dolt. I've known some really retarded people who managed to be present for level 60 kills who would never be able to be carried through H LK (Yhee by name, known to Synth).

Insofar as the H LK encounter makes random choices - who gets plague/defile/valked, if it's only ONE person in the raid who's having an offnight or whatever, you'd eventually get good draws. Yet 100-odd attempts later, that's just not the case, it's more than just getting bad draws again and again.

Grimmgor wrote:

You know that all it takes is one or two people derfting around to fuck up an encounter. You raided with us for a while (albeit it was during my absence), and we're a run of the mill 200-300 guild. Every other guild in our area is the same way, and you're trying to act like every notable guild hasn't killed him, when they have.

No, that's EXACTLY my point. Yes, middle of the ground 200-300 whatever. Yes, notable guilds have killed it. That's the point. Not fucking up and raw performance are both part of skill, and not only as a group but as individuals these guilds and raiders are simply better. The proof of being better - the acid test - is being able to do that which is hard. Conversely, it's hard because most players can't play at that level.

My entire point is...it is a hard encounter...and that is why neither you nor I have yet seen our guilds complete it. Not any external factors or failings of individuals other than that they aren't as good as they'd like to be. It's just plain hard.

Aqlo · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:24 pm

The fight is hard. There's enough things any one person can screw up on to wipe the raid that it's highly unlikely you'll see more than 3-4 repeats of the same person making the same mistake until you kill the boss.

The design of "if the guy next to me screws up, I die and we wipe" makes this, and arguably Sindragosa/Put/LDW (unchained magic or tombs/plague or kiting/ghosts) the hardest fights in the instance. Just like Archimonde was a cockblock, and just like Gorefiend was a cockblock with "that guy" fucking up on ghosts.

To say that a fight is hard because it's unrecoverable from mistakes is stupid. It's tuned well and the same people that bitch about easy content will bitch about hard content when they can't do it, then they'll rave about how it's the best tuned content in the game once they kill it, if they kill it relatively early.

Looking directly at Einkil and the M'uru fight. Right. Now.

Usdk · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:31 pm

oh gorefiend.

how much you made me hate the short bus riders.

Corus · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:44 pm

Don't you dare put fucking words in my mouth rob, muru was fucking horrible I never said otherwise.

Grimmgor · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:51 pm

Quote:

Kel'thuzard had no mechanic that would fuck over 40 people because of one dolt. I've known some really retarded people who managed to be present for level 60 kills who would never be able to be carried through H LK (Yhee by name, known to Synth)

actually pretty much everything he did would fuck you over if someone screwed up. your second comment holds no value because your only comparison thus far has been MC, which was far from end game raiding. i know people now who can't avoid malleable goo, they would've never been remotely useful in a naxx raid.

Quote:

Insofar as the H LK encounter makes random choices - who gets plague/defile/valked, if it's only ONE person in the raid who's having an offnight or whatever, you'd eventually get good draws. Yet 100-odd attempts later, that's just not the case, it's more than just getting bad draws again and again.

You're saying a boss that does all of his abilities right as the timer hits, as opposed to one who chooses completely random targets and uses them whenever he wants, tending to chain them all to cause utter chaos amongst a larger raid in a smaller room, is more random? His mind control alone is harder to deal with then anything LK has to offer, let alone everything else chained together. Sorry that you think the encounter was what it is in WotLK, because it isn't.

Quote:

That's the point. Not fucking up and raw performance are both part of skill, and not only as a group but as individuals these guilds and raiders are simply better. .

Which is exactly what I said? That guilds in this range of progression haven't killed him not because it's super duper hard, but because they're carrying people who just aren't good enough?

Arthas is not the hardest boss this game has seen.

Aqlo · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:08 pm

Corus wrote:

Don't you dare put fucking words in my mouth rob, muru was fucking horrible I never said otherwise.

jk, it was einkil

I'd link to the threads that he posted in but they all got nuked for other drama reasons.

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:26 pm

Grimmgor wrote:

actually pretty much everything he did would fuck you over if someone screwed up. your second comment holds no value because your only comparison thus far has been MC, which was far from end game raiding. i know people now who can't avoid malleable goo, they would've never been remotely useful in a naxx raid.

Such as?

Grimmgor wrote:

You're saying a boss that does all of his abilities right as the timer hits, as opposed to one who chooses completely random targets and uses them whenever he wants, tending to chain them all to cause utter chaos amongst a larger raid in a smaller room, is more random? His mind control alone is harder to deal with then anything LK has to offer, let alone everything else chained together. Sorry that you think the encounter was what it is in WotLK, because it isn't.

Mind control is a stereotyped mechanic used on countless encounters and polymorphing a hapless MC is a lot easier than moving around with debuffs. It's easier precisely because it's not anyone's responsibility and not something that can be fucked up short of failing at pressing the sheep button which is no different than on any other encounter with an MC, or even trash in fivemans. KT MC'd how many people at once - four? - and 40-man raids typically included how many mages, ten? If one mage has brain aids there's five other mages to cover for him.

Grimmgor wrote:

Which is exactly what I said? That guilds in this range of progression haven't killed him not because it's super duper hard, but because they're carrying people who just aren't good enough

And we go back to the WMOs - that includes very nearly everyone both you and I raid with, because obviously none of us are that good, to pull those numbers. We're wearing essentially the same gear and have close comps - they're just better.

Theconfusedone · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:33 pm

Aestu wrote:

Mind control is a stereotyped mechanic used on countless encounters and polymorphing a hapless MC is a lot easier than moving around with debuffs. It's easier precisely because it's not anyone's responsibility and not something that can be fucked up short of failing at pressing the sheep button which is no different than on any other encounter with an MC, or even trash in fivemans.

Moving around with a debuff is a stereotyped mechanic used on countless encounters and pressing the W key is a lot easier than targeting someone and casting polymorph. It's easier precisely because it's not anyone's responsibility and not something can be fucked up short of failing at pressing the W key which is no different on any other encounter with a debuff, or even trash in fivemans.

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