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Is it even fair that Obama is getting blame/credit for anything related to the oil spill?
Poll ended at Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:27 am
Yes 10%  10%  [ 1 ]
No 90%  90%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 10
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 Post subject: Shakedown?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:27 am  
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So, with all the oil spill garbage spewing into the news this week...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06 ... n-million/

#1: This congressman is a complete idiot.
#2: I don't think he's wrong.

Nice dichotomy, don't you think?

He's an idiot because it was a politically stupid thing to say, especially where and when he said it. Politicians doing something politically stupid, while not rare in the least, is completely unforgivable given that their job is politics.

Alas, I don't think he's wrong. The meeting in the White House yesterday was a shake-down. BP has, according to all the information I can gather, about 600 people processing claims related to the oil spill and has already been paying claims. That being the case, why the need for the $20 BILLION "escrow fund?" BP is already showing good faith, and the moment they don't we have a judicial system in place to handle any civil claims against the company.

The presence of Attorney General Eric Holder, who has been threatening criminal prosecution leads me to believe there was at least some implied quid pro quo. "Give us the money and let us address the claims so that we can take credit and look good, and we'll see what we can do about the nasty possibility of those criminal charges."

BP screwed up, and they need to take responsibility, but I truly believe that the key reason cameras weren't in the room to show how "tough" the President can be on these "evil corporate devils" is because the administration didn't want anyone to see YouTube video of themselves extorting money from a corporation to use to buy political favors...which is exactly what will happen with it now that it is under the control of one of Obama's czars.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:19 am  
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The Obama administration is amazingly incompetent.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:54 am  
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"Showing good faith" isn't helping an entire ecosystem and the ways of life for thousands if not millions of people from not getting destroyed. Not to mention BP won't even tell us how much oil is billowing out of there and they're doing media moves like buying search results on google so that they direct to websites that are linked to their side of this pickle.

Also, for the people pissed at Obama, Fareed Zakariah brings up some great points about that.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaejBVWifV8[/youtube]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:30 am  
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Fareed's ok.


Jubber, I heard from a friend of mine building houses down in Haiti that the billion bucks we sent to haiti is gone, as are the surviving landowners and whoever was left in charge of the government.

Maybe they're just trying to get some money back and BP is giving them the perfect excuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Shakedown?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:27 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
BP is already showing good faith, and the moment they don't we have a judicial system in place to handle any civil claims against the company.


Really? They lowballed the rate of the leak for weeks (the amount of damages they have to pay are linked to the amount that's spilled) and didn't share relevant information to allow others to confirm the estimates until forced to. That isn't acting in good faith. As for the judicial system, Exxon spent 20 years appealing the damages against them for the Exxon Valdez spill and ended up paying only a fraction of the true cost of the spill. I don't think the courts will be any more useful against BP.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:04 pm  
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Misrepresented estimates about the oil leak are bad, but how does that relate to paying claims for damages, which they are (were?) doing? Does one thing they've done wrong (or at least negligently/incompetently) completely overwrite the one relevant thing they've been doing right so far? I think it's fair to say yes to that, but realistically, it looks like BP is as bad as our own government when it comes to the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

I find the allegation (fact?) that BP had 700 times the number of safety violations as their largest competitor to be more important than the estimates of oil released from the well. It could always be argued that the estimates weren't released because they were open to interpretation, or someone didn't feel they were done right, but the safety violations are something that should have been addressed somewhere in the corporate structure before something like this happened.

Even with any of the questionable actions cited here, is it still acceptable for representatives of our government to extort actions/funds from private individuals/companies like bunch of (admittedly sophisticated) thugs outside of the confines of the due process of law such individuals/companies would be subject/entitled to in our legal system?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:50 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Misrepresented estimates about the oil leak are bad, but how does that relate to paying claims for damages, which they are (were?) doing?


They can be charged from $1100 up to $4300 for each barrel spilled. Their initial estimate was 1000 barrels per day, while the true amount is probably somewhere between 20 000 and 40 000 barrels per day. That adds up to a lot more money.


Quote:
Does one thing they've done wrong (or at least negligently/incompetently) completely overwrite the one relevant thing they've been doing right so far? I think it's fair to say yes to that, but realistically, it looks like BP is as bad as our own government when it comes to the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.

I find the allegation (fact?) that BP had 700 times the number of safety violations as their largest competitor to be more important than the estimates of oil released from the well. It could always be argued that the estimates weren't released because they were open to interpretation, or someone didn't feel they were done right, but the safety violations are something that should have been addressed somewhere in the corporate structure before something like this happened.

Even with any of the questionable actions cited here, is it still acceptable for representatives of our government to extort actions/funds from private individuals/companies like bunch of (admittedly sophisticated) thugs outside of the confines of the due process of law such individuals/companies would be subject/entitled to in our legal system?

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Jubber


The $20 billion is being set aside for claims so that the money is there if needed for claims - it's not a payment to the government. If their liability ends up being less than $20 billion they get the money back, but whatever payments they have to make up to that amount are now guaranteed, and they can't drag things out in the courts for decades to avoid them. I think that's pretty reasonable.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:07 pm  
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Hey guys we're gonna drill for oil.

No, we're not going to have a contigency plan in case of a complete fubar of the oil rig.

What are we, crazy?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:37 am  
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Laelia wrote:
They can be charged from $1100 up to $4300 for each barrel spilled. Their initial estimate was 1000 barrels per day, while the true amount is probably somewhere between 20 000 and 40 000 barrels per day. That adds up to a lot more money.

If the beef is that the estimate decides how big a fine they pay...then why was the fox guarding the hen house in the first place? It's like getting pulled over for a traffic ticket, the cop asking you how fast you were going, and you replying with a low-ball figure and the cop going with that. Is it wrong of BP to give a deflated estimate? If they did it on purpose, then yes, but where was the government? In what other matter would the perpetrator be the one taking the measure of their guilt?


Laelia wrote:
The $20 billion is being set aside for claims so that the money is there if needed for claims - it's not a payment to the government. If their liability ends up being less than $20 billion they get the money back, but whatever payments they have to make up to that amount are now guaranteed, and they can't drag things out in the courts for decades to avoid them. I think that's pretty reasonable.

I see a few problems with this setup:
#1: The idea that the federal government would get its hands on a pile of cash and not misuse it, spend it on unrelated matters, and/or give back any surplus runs contrary to the modern history of the US government. Hell, we had a tax until the 1990s that was put in place to raise money for the Spanish-American War...and they're going to let $20 billion slip through their grubby fingers? You're off your nut if you believe that.
#2: When the price tag for claims exceeds $20 billion, BP is going to go all Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of the affair. "So sorry, old chap, but we gave you the funds to cover that, you were supposed to take care of it." Then we're going to find out the terms that were set down in that meeting the other day, and find out that something stupid someone in the administration said is going to somehow indemnify BP, and the taxpayer is going to be stuck with the bill.
#3: If a party other than BP needs to oversee the fund, it shouldn't be someone from the administration. I still strongly believe this creates an appearance of impropriety. There are plenty of third party groups that could administrate the fund and do it more efficiently and with less fraud than the US government, which has a piss-poor track record of administering aid funds. It would even be preferable, in my mind, for a coalition of the governments of the Gulf states to administer the funds.
#4: BP has not, unlike Exxon during the Valdez incident, been running to courts for injunctions and extensions. They've been processing and paying claims. I do see the wisdom in setting up an escrow account for this in the event that BP suffers serious financial meltdown, and would endorse legislation or judicial action initiating such a fund. I do not, however, approve of the executive branch assuming powers not granted to it by law to force this on private citizens/companies through the use of coercion, threats, and intimidation.

The problem we have here that I will assume you don't have in Canadia is that once we let one of our branches of government get away with something once, it is automatically assumed that they can do it again any time they want. I'm going to assume that the executive branch performing acts of extortion will be acceptable public policy in the future.

If it weren't for overblown environmental policy and rich people with beach houses not wanting their ocean views distorted by the equipment that fuels their Escalades, this well and others like it would have been placed in shallow water where this kind of incident would have been more easily handled.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:21 pm  
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Fix the damn hole, until then then money should pour out of them like oil into the gulf.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:38 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
Fix the damn hole, until then then money should pour out of them like oil into the gulf.

I read that the value of their stock is right above junk status and currently, their assets are worth more than the company is.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:45 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
If the beef is that the estimate decides how big a fine they pay...then why was the fox guarding the hen house in the first place? It's like getting pulled over for a traffic ticket, the cop asking you how fast you were going, and you replying with a low-ball figure and the cop going with that. Is it wrong of BP to give a deflated estimate? If they did it on purpose, then yes, but where was the government? In what other matter would the perpetrator be the one taking the measure of their guilt?


The government doesn't have monitoring equipment at the well, while BP does. Unless it were paid for by the oil companies, it would be pretty expensive for the government to have all of the equipment and expertise to deal with oil spills just sitting around until such a rare event happened.


Quote:
I see a few problems with this setup:
#1: The idea that the federal government would get its hands on a pile of cash and not misuse it, spend it on unrelated matters, and/or give back any surplus runs contrary to the modern history of the US government. Hell, we had a tax until the 1990s that was put in place to raise money for the Spanish-American War...and they're going to let $20 billion slip through their grubby fingers? You're off your nut if you believe that.
#2: When the price tag for claims exceeds $20 billion, BP is going to go all Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of the affair. "So sorry, old chap, but we gave you the funds to cover that, you were supposed to take care of it." Then we're going to find out the terms that were set down in that meeting the other day, and find out that something stupid someone in the administration said is going to somehow indemnify BP, and the taxpayer is going to be stuck with the bill.
#3: If a party other than BP needs to oversee the fund, it shouldn't be someone from the administration. I still strongly believe this creates an appearance of impropriety. There are plenty of third party groups that could administrate the fund and do it more efficiently and with less fraud than the US government, which has a piss-poor track record of administering aid funds. It would even be preferable, in my mind, for a coalition of the governments of the Gulf states to administer the funds.
#4: BP has not, unlike Exxon during the Valdez incident, been running to courts for injunctions and extensions. They've been processing and paying claims. I do see the wisdom in setting up an escrow account for this in the event that BP suffers serious financial meltdown, and would endorse legislation or judicial action initiating such a fund. I do not, however, approve of the executive branch assuming powers not granted to it by law to force this on private citizens/companies through the use of coercion, threats, and intimidation.


#1 The federal government's budget is something like $3 trillion dollars. $20 billion is peanuts compared to that. Even if there was a motivation to steal such a small amount, they would have voters and the courts to answer to.
#2 Obama and BP have both said the $20 billion is not a cap. You can choose not to believe them, but that isn't the most likely scenario.
#3 The guy administering the fund is a lawyer who is experienced in running compensation, and who runs his own law firm. He isn't a part of the administration, except in the sense that he's worked for them on previous similar jobs (as he did for past administrations).
#4 There's no evidence that Obama did anything other than talk to BP to get them to set up this fund. I believe the constitution allows presidents to talk to people. I understand you don't like Obama, but if you're accusing someone of doing something illegal you usually need evidence to back it up.

Quote:
The problem we have here that I will assume you don't have in Canadia is that once we let one of our branches of government get away with something once, it is automatically assumed that they can do it again any time they want. I'm going to assume that the executive branch performing acts of extortion will be acceptable public policy in the future.

If it weren't for overblown environmental policy and rich people with beach houses not wanting their ocean views distorted by the equipment that fuels their Escalades, this well and others like it would have been placed in shallow water where this kind of incident would have been more easily handled.


Oil companies drill in deep water because there's oil there, and they're in the business of obtaining oil. I don't know where you get this idea that sightline concerns are forcing them into deep water - there are nearly 4000 oil rigs already in the Gulf, almost all of them in shallow water. Here's a map - the yellow dots are oil rigs, the approximate location of the Deepwater Horizon is the red dot.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:42 pm  
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so shouldn't they have plans in place for say.....worst case scenarios such as this?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:22 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
so shouldn't they have plans in place for say.....worst case scenarios such as this?


Obviously they should, but clearly either the laws or the enforcement were inadequate in this case.

Edit - I'm not sure if you're referring to oil companies or the government. I don't think it should be a government's responsibility to cover for private companies screwing up. In the case of oil drilling, the companies should have a worst-case scenario clean-up and monitoring plan in place in order to get a license to drill, and it should be open to scrutiny by the public. I'm not sure to what extent that is the case in US law.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:25 pm  
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What id really like to see is for some sort of document that says essentially "Screw the safety precautions, cuts into our money and we wanna do this fast cause time=money. Not like anything bad is going to happen. Ignore safety precautions X, X and most certainly X because it costs alot.

Signed big fat BP exec"

You know there was someone high up who said dont put in precautions. Its not like joe shmoe the electrician would blatantly ignore government regulations especially for something that he could possibly be working on himself. Some guy thought by cutting corners BP would turn a few extra thousand, and is directly responsible for this. At the very least if this guy is found, his sentence should be to clean up as much oil he can with a toothbrush, and then sit for a good chunk of his life in prison.

That is what is wrong with multi billion corporations. Once they get to a certain point, people get so damned haughty and snooty that they feel they can cut corners and it doesnt affect them at all. Which to a degree it does, look at all the big disasters caused by companies like BP over the years. How many of the CEO's or whoever were in charge/to blame actually had any real punishment to them other than a nice severance package and a drop in stock prices that doesnt effect them because they sold out just as the crisis began to raise its head.

I hope like hell they find someone. The south could use a good lynching.


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