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If it seems I'm bouncing back to square one, that's because you're constantly deflecting the discussion away from the central question - what makes you think the playerbase as a whole is enjoying the game less now than during TBC. The closest I can see that you've come to an answer is that the game was harder then, and harder==more fun. I just don't think that's a perspective shared by the majority of the people who play this game. Whether or not you want to accept it, people do enjoy things that are different from the things you enjoy.

My second paragraph there was a Portal reference, following Meowth's post, nothing more.

Aestu, you really do a good job of researching and explaining very complicated ways to completely miss the fucking point.


People don't play wow for the achievements, wow is a fucking chatroom with swords.

In general, people play wow for the people.

It's very simple for us to understand, but I think Aestu is more or a closed-minded person making it very hard for him to believe that people can have fun by doing things other than what he finds enjoyable. Also..



QFT

I did have more fun back in TBC and even more fun back in Vanilla. But no, it was not because stuff was harder, it was for many different reasons.

And off topic question but.. what does "I AM A BAD PLAYER" replace?

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

You know what I do in this game?

BG's with Meowth and Weezing.

oh fuck, I think my line manager is on this forum

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

so where to when you quit Aestu ? (srs question)


I also plan to call it quits after Wrath, if I can't find something else to do in spare time gaming wise I'll probably just twiddle my thumbs or something.

You could whittle some.

Alright, you've obviously made the decision you want to say you've won an argument rather than engage the point I'm making, and pretend you're above the level of the many people who say that the game is markedly worse now by making specious and contrarian arguments.

The issue isn't that the game is easier per se, it's that the design has made the social element of the game outside guilds a highly negative experience, and that changes meant to make the game less grindy or address other perceived flaws in the game have made them much worse.

I don't disdain people who enjoy any of the many different outlets of this game, but saying that the kind of incredibly negative behavior that is the result of LFD, welfare epics and the removal of progression is progression is as valid a reason as any other for playing this game is a nihilistic copout for your own refusal to challenge your position.



That is the point. Outside guilds or circles of familiar people, associating with the wider playerbase has never been so negative. Running fivemans or anything else in vanilla or TBC wasn't the totally antisocial experience it is now. Your friends now are those who you met then.



Where do you arrive at that conclusion? Do you really think I disdain anyone who doesn't farm achievements?



I'm not worried about a shortage of ways to entertain myself. If you are asking if I'm going to play another MMO, my answer is probably no. FFXIV might be interesting but I'm dubious.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Druid: Meowth
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Actually, i think tuhl is about the only person on these forums i knew in vanilla. I met dreys in late tbc, and the rest of you in wotlk.

so yeah wrong again.

You're misinterpreting something I said - I never said I won anything, and I wasn't engaging in this conversation to "win" anything other than to clarify what your position was. You've finally done that, but I still disagree with you. Perhaps there are more negative social interactions for some people now, but I don't think that characterizes the game as a whole. I don't see LFD as a destructive influence like you seem to - you've always been forced to group with the occasional asshole and bad player if you want to run pug groups, and I like the fact that I can actually get into groups consistently as DPS rather than idling in Shat for an hour or two and giving up due to the lack of tanks. Welfare epics were around and plentiful in TBC too, so I'm not sure what about them you think has gotten worse in WotLK, or how they affect social interactions. As for progression, that's an aspect of the game that doesn't affect me or the majority of the playerbase. The raiding base has gotten much larger, but it's still the case that only a minority of players do what could be considered progression-oriented high level raiding.

I have no doubts that some people enjoy the game less now, but some people enjoy it more, and making sweeping generalizations of the sort that you originally did seem unfounded to me. If you're going to characterize any position that disagrees with your own as specious and nihilistic, feel free to do so, but there's no point in continuing this conversation if that's your approach.

My position was perfectly clear from the start. I posted in this thread for the very reason my opinion was asked. I merely got things back on track.

The issue isn't meeting deadbeats, it's allowing them to define the mores and pace of the game. No way at any point in the previous two expansions could players join instance groups or pug or guild raids and carry on the kind of bullshit attitudes they do now, and it's pervaded much of the interaction of the game. No way you could zone into an instance and go afk or autoattack mobs for half the tank's damage or trash talk endlessly and just get away with it. There wasn't the overwhelming false elitism and downward spiral there is now, and "putting on the rose colored glasses", saying everything was euphoric back in the day, or that there haven't been recent, long-overdue changes and improvements, isn't the same as saying things have gotten markedly worse.

Non-set epics from badges of justice in TBC weren't at all comparable to the present because heroics were non-trivial and required at least some degree of effort and cooperation. You didn't have to be a WoW rockstar but there wasn't total disincentivization of effort. Non-set pieces also didn't foster overwhelming false elitism. Gearscore is a symptom not a cause.

The serial nature of LFD, as opposed to having to make groups by hand, fosters the cynical attitudes and grindiness of the content. The issue isn't how individual players feel, it's how the nature of the game is defined. Culture is a response to the environment.

The issue isn't the incidental meeting of jerks, it's how they are empowered to control the experience.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

As I said, you misinterpreted a Portal reference to mean something it wasn't intended to. I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat that.

If you had posted an explanation this clear at the beginning rather than deflecting my questions we wouldn't have had to drag this out for 3 pages. I still disagree with you, but at least I can see where you're coming from. I think "The issue isn't how individual players feel, it's how the nature of the game is defined" is the central point of disagreement between us - for me, the enjoyment the playerbase gets out of the game is the sum of how much fun individual players have, while you seem to see some overall level of enjoyment that's independent from individual experiences. I have no idea why you think that, but you're certainly entitled to your opinions.

Sorry, I have very little interest in or knowledge of contemporary media, so much of what is familiar to you is alien to me, and vice versa.



It's the nature of every culture, community, multilateral interaction, and WoW itself that the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts. This is most evident when we talk about a status quo or what is feasible in a given setting.

I can't understand why you would see it as strange or counter-intuitive that the enjoyment that the individual gets from interacting with the multitude is contingent on the nature of the latter.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.