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Cool your fucking guns, keep it civil. Heated issue is politically charged and ruins shit quicker than marriage.

5 minutes, go to your corners.

I am THE man.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee15 ... 171424.jpg

sry guys. ilu all. :[

Did I win?

Yah, I'm mad, but merely because I cannot stand people like you - 'my morality is superior, my beliefs more grounded and righteous'; this is only compounded by the fact that you alone turned to personal attacks by criticizing both Tuhl's and Akiina's character.

I don't have any respect for a rapist or a murderer either, but neither do I have respect for something that isn't functionally human, especially something that's the legacy of one of the aforementioned rapists, something which will continue to be an ever-present reminder to a single mother who didn't want the kid in the first place and sure as hell won't do a good job raising it if she hates it. Cite adoption if you want, but no one's going to adopt that kid.

Abort it early enough, and you're golden. You can't deny the chance to see to something that doesn't have eyes yet.

I'm also not sure my character was being attacked, though I disagree with attacking Akiina here.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Good. I'm glad we can't stand each other.

Let me ask you this - Is murder wrong? You're against capital punishment. You're against Israel murdering Palestinians... but you're for murdering a child. Explain how you justify your position and how you're a champion of human life and rights, yet you support the destruction of an innocent life.

thank you sir, i literally burst out laughing. i usually try and keep myself civil and tactful on these boards, but man... you really needed to resort to personal attacks to fuel your glennbeck agenda? what is it with conservatives taking everything so personal and getting so insanely butthurt when people don't agree with their "morals". especially you, who claim to not be religious but still have managed to inherit the ability to micromanage who lives and who dies. at least religious fanatics can use god as their backup. you just have you. who seems fairly human, therefore as retarded as the rest of us.

I don't consider it murder because I don't consider it life. Murder itself is obviously wrong, and near as I can tell it's never justified. There are instances of killing that aren't murder such as self-defense in a perceived him-or-me situation or reasonable wartime action (toe the line, war crimes exist). A fetus that doesn't have a heartbeat isn't functionally human. It's not a "child" yet, and as such it can't be murdered. As far as that goes, that's why I support early abortion.

As for late-term, that's generally to save the mother's life, which is far more valuable than a fetus that only has a chance of making it anyway and will be motherless regardless.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Because it's not life. It's a sac of cells feeding/leeching off of my body. It has no conciousness, it cannot surive on it's own. Ask any credible M.D. or Biologist and they'd agree that both a. It's a parasite, and b. 'Life', real, concious, human life doesn't start until at least six weeks.

Earlier on, I asked questions playing devil's advocate. Now, I'll state my actual opinion.

The problem with such discussions is that there is no correct answer. This is a subject for which people have a lot of passion. It is an intensely personal issue. You must decide what is morally/ethically best for you, and go with it. Many who attack abortion do so as if they were defending their own children, I think. I don't think it is fair to take the fierce love one feels for their own child, and attack the decision of another as if condoning their right to terminate is a betrayal of your own baby. It's just another medical procedure.

All abortions are regretful, but are ultimately the decision of the pregnant woman. I believe she should be required to discuss her decision with the father of the child, but the decision rests with her. This is unfair, because he could not force her to have an abortion if she wanted to keep it, but she could force him to be a father. His legal responsibilities would continue despite his objections. While this situation blows, there is no other way it can work. She has to carry the baby and the risks/discomfort/body changes that accompany it all. The final decision must rest with the woman.

My opinion about first trimester abortions is that this developing cluster of cells is no more a human being yet than cheek scrapings. There are tons of living cells in both, but these are not children. If they are, then what are we to do with all those leftover blastocysts (sp) in the dish when couples undergo in vitro? Is the lab tech who just made the people the happiest couple in the world to be accused of mass murder when he incinerates the unused fertilized blobs of human goo? And to think, he/she does this every day! They've killed an amazing number of people. These cells are not people. An acorn is not an oak.

Later abortions give me more pause, I'll admit. Where to draw that line is quite a difficult question for me.

It would be great if all pregnancies could be planned, and all children born could be loved and wanted. It just doesn't work that way. My first child was unplanned. I was still in High School. Rough time for us and our families. We discussed abortion with our doctor. Rejecting this option, we then starting talking about getting married. We were scared out of our minds. Barely 18 and barely 17. Our parents watched plans they had for their babies go up in smoke. That was 33 years ago. Having been there, I can see how intelligent, loving people could come to an excruciating decision to terminate. It's terrible to contemplate. They aren't monsters or murderers. We didn't do it, and I'm glad, but I could never judge anyone who does.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Women normally find out they're pregnant between 4 and 6 weeks because of ovulation cycles, early spotting and missed periods. There isn't a day-after indicator saying, "Hey, you're pregnant!" In fact, most home BCTs give false readings within three weeks of conception. Since it's so difficult to catch a pregnancy before the first 4-6 weeks, any abortion after that would be, by your definition, killing a living human.

So, is the general consensus that abortions before the visible heart beat is OK, but after that it's a no-go?

The person I referred to earlier had one prior to 6 weeks.


PS: You have up to the 22nd day after conception. 22rd day or later, you'll feel quite... cold.

No, it's just a threshold. Heartbeat alone isn't enough, as explained by the vegetables discussion a few pages prior.

I guess I chose poor wording in my other post.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

This is one of those things I see/hear people discussing which makes me think to myself, "I could give less than a fuck."

Abortion doesn't bother me. It keeps the population of asshats breathing my air down.
I'm all for killing criminals.
War is bad, but sometimes necessary. I want the guys on my side to live, and the other guys to assplodify all over the fucking place.
Some people are dicks, and the more ridiculous the way they die, the harder I laugh.

Frankly, killing and death are a part of life, and I have no problem with it.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

My free will tells me not to worship him.

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