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Then I hate to be a dick, but why haven't you moved up to a guild that has killed heroic lich king yet?

I agree the game isn't hard, and that the lack of difficulty has made the average player be able to accomplish more, but there are still the boundaries between the groups I listed before. Its easy to move within the groups, but harder to move up, at least from the 11/12 blob to 12/12.

I really think that right now its the frantic 11/12 people who are looking for a kill, and the 12/12 who are sitting on what they have right now. Once the end of expansion atrophy sets in, there will be recruiting bursts, which will make it easier for personal progression pre-cataclysm. But really it will just be a focus shift to setting up the guild to be in a good position come the next expansion.

Fix't*



ILU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

85 Mage Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......
85 LOLKnight Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......
85 Shaman Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......

This doesn't make sense Aestu. If it were so easy to move up the totem pole, why wouldn't more players do it?

If the removal of real progression has stymied player skill development, wouldn't that make it harder for newer/lower level gamers to get into guilds pushing LK Hardmodes etc?

You mention that the community is stratified...this basically means that there are now more layers in the community, which would mean it's much harder to move from one stratum to the next, as there are more of them and their lines are more rigid.


I know I could not get into Tasty Beverage, or some other hardcore guild on BH right now. Not because of a lack of skill or knowledge of the end game content (i've killed LK etc.), but because I have absolutely zero gear from any heroic 25m ICC encounters. No top-tier progression guild would want to take someone without that. Why would they want to teach me a bunch of hardmode fights, give me a bunch of hardmode gear, etc...just so I can join them for Lich king 25m hardmode attempts? Makes no sense.

It's like the dude from TB said, it's why top tier guilds are just recruiting from each other...because players need to have the end game hardmode gear/experience in order to get invited.

I like how Azelma keeps quoting my posts and spending three paragraphs asking a question that would have been answered had he read past the first five words he quoted.

Myrarr, that's a good question; the answer is, first off, I accept I have difficulty fitting in and am wary of giving that up; second, I have learned the hard way that xferring is a very uncertain business; and third, I believe that I have an obligation to the guild with which I have a mutual commitment.

That said, I'll volunteer that I am not happy with how things are going. We will see.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Maybe if you would just be concise and quit attempting to use ginormotastical words (especially when it becomes obvious that you're not entirely clear on the meaning yourself) instead of putting up a fucking billboard full of bullshit, your points would be plain and there would be no mistaking what you're saying.

Just Sayin'.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I read past the first five words and found this:



This does not answer any of my questions. Your argument makes absolutely no sense.

It is not easier than ever before to move up the totem pole between guilds. I provided with you a personal example as to how this movement is impossible, unless I literally slept with an Officer in TB or some other guild, I could not just sweep in and join them.

I await your reply, sir!

Make this your signature

85 Mage Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......
85 LOLKnight Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......
85 Shaman Bleeding Hollow Bored with game so I let sub expire......

Getting the gear to join any guild is easy. 264 is fine. Getting an invite is easy. The problem is most prospective apps suck.

I said this. Seriously, stop replying if you won't read the post.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Honestly we'd probably laugh at an app that was in straight 264. I realize there is a difference in my guild vs most others, but still.. we're on a different layer than the majority of others, so moving up into our layer is difficult right now. At this point in an expansion, it becomes a self-perpetuating system at this level. If you're in, you're in. If not, you're not. It breaks down as cata gets closer.
I don't mean to invalidate your point of view, and I'll admit my view is skewed, as I have a different vantage point than you do Aestu, or Azelma.

I think in a few months its going to be prime time to try to break into a top level guild... but the past several months were most certainly not a good time. Now that 30% buff is out, and like.. 40 more US guilds have killed HLK25, things are starting to change. But if you were a mid tier raider 2 or 3 months ago, and wanted to move up to the top.. I would say it was near impossible, because everybody was desperate for LK kills, and didn't want someone inexperienced. Gear is easy to fix, lack of experience, raid savvy, and a proven track record are not.

Might I suggest Beaten? Or Dockingbay.. he's an ex-officer.

Accepting that, my point of view has been that several of our long-term core raiders transferred up; Gwen Stefani's prior paladin tank (who had comparable gear to me) joined Exodus and tanked their first two LK heroic kills. Ironically enough it's generally accepted I'm better than him, and he quit raiding with them after about three weeks for RL reasons that are factually known to us. We lost quite a few raiders and it has greatly stymied us. We have tried quite a few apps (including a warrior with a smourne) who have all the gear but not the skill. Meanwhile we are taking some raiders who - again - at no other time in WoW's history have such vertical mobility. Unfortunately, they suck, and I'm wary of how this will unfold.

When some of our raiders left, they joined a guild that has since downed the LK pre-30%. This came as no surprise; I had been asked by the guild to join as well, but I declined for the reasons I described.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Define "easy"?

If you are in a guild clearing ICC 25, then they probably have loot council, DKP, or something...so you'll still have to spend many weeks just getting the loot. Not to mention, things like trinkets will be in high demand, low supply...and you can't join TB with your little wellfare shitty trinkets now can you?

Let's say you aren't already in a guild that can clear ICC 25m, then how do you get 264 gear?

You PuG right, or do GDKPs? What about the fact that many PuGs go retarded when it comes to Rotface and Fester? What about the barrier even getting into some pugs if your gearscore isn't "high enough" or you don't have the achievement? Okay, assume that your PuG isn't fail, if it's a straight up /roll, you'll be competing for a lot of loot.

GDKPs? Okay...you still have to earn all that gold, and if you want to have any decent shot at solid trinkets you're going to need a lot of it.

So yes, put in several lockouts worth of time to getting that gear, just to be considered.

Once you do that:

Getting an invite is "easy"? Have you considered that top end guilds only recruit certain classes/specs they need...so what do you do if your in an undesirable class or spec? You think DPS DKs have the easiest upward mobility?

Alright, let's say you're a holy priest, you've done all the work, you pugged/whored your way to 264 gear, and you found a hardcore guild you want to join. You still have to fill out the app, mention your experience (what if you've never done any hardmodes...you don't think that would take away from your application?). If you don't actually know anyone already in guild, you'll have another significant barrier in terms of making friends, getting a solid recommendation. You best believe, if the guild is reputable enough, they will have multiple players applying for the same class/spec position. You better hope you have something to distinguish yourself from the pack.

If you get through all that, you still have your trial period etc.

Doesn't seem to be so easy that "anyone" could do it. Considering there are a limited number of raiding spots in hardcore guilds, it seems like it's actually quite difficult.

Aestu, you are overly generalizing. It is NOT as easy as you claim it is to get into these guilds. Furthermore, how would you even know how "easy" it is? Are you sitting in Officer chat of all the top guilds as they discuss what random players they want to invite simply because these players were able to pug and buy their way to 264 items (because thats the only real requirement right?).

Aestu, you're just wrong on this...I know you won't admit it...but you are.

If it were as easy to get into high end guilds and raid with them as you claim, then every moron keyboard turner would be in Tasty Beverage and TB would never have killed Heroic LK because of all the idiots they had to keep gearing out.

an 11/12 player going to an 11/12 guild and then ending up killing H LK isn't as clearly upward progression as an 11/12 going to a 12/12. Its moving sideways, and then the guild killing the boss(late).

And im not doubting that friends of yours/you got invited to a 12/12 guild. It does happen. But its more the exception rather than the norm at this time. Again, another few months go by, and everybody will be looking to fill in roster spots as people burn out on clearing Ulduar, ICC, and RS hardmodes all in one night, and then sitting around with their thumbs up their asses waiting for cataclysm

Myrrar, I think in that scenario most guilds will just close up shop till the expansion. No one wants to regress while relearning everything with second-string apps. That said, I would definitely say going from pugs - even good ones - to 11/12 is a vastly greater transition than 11/12 to 12/12.

Azelma, you have no idea what you're talking about and your assumptions are flatly wrong. I had mostly 264 from pugs months ago and anyone who so much as wants to does now. For the many 11/12 guilds, loot, aside from heroic tier, DOES grow on trees. Believe me, the problem isn't talented apps being unable to stand out, it's having the talent in the first place.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.