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No, he's not being reasonable because NOTHING about putting an Islamic Center (not a mosque, but a place where people of all faiths can congregate) is a dick move. Nothing. They are interested in the spot so as to bridge the divide between retarded americans who think Islam and the religion of the terrorists is interchangeable and the moderate, modern Muslims with whom they happen to share this country with.

It's retards who think that this is somehow and "insult" (how the fuck do you asshats justify calling something so damn trivial and insult anyway) that causes divides between people when we should all juts live in peace and shut the fuck up.

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Ok so even though I stated specifically that there is no reason to prohibit the building of the center, and in essence agree with you completely, you're still arguing against me because I think it's a dick move?

Not so much a dick move... but it's a little insensitive. If he's attempting to bridge the gap and improve relations between Islam and the American populace then he's failing miserably. He's refused to meet with anyone regarding this and people have offered him more than the property is worth to relocate. Instead, he's insistent on building it right there although a majority of American polls oppose the current location. Like I said, if his hope is to bridge that divide like you say he's horribly off course. I'm sure New Yorkers feel like it's a slap in the face and I bet looking at it in passing will only incite more anger against Islam; extremist or peaceful Muslims, alike. The insult is in the location. I think people see it as planting the flag of victory like Islam in Jerusalem in the 600's or Spain in the 700's; destruction of a 'sacred' monument and building a mosque atop the grounds. (I say 'sacred' because it's what many people consider the area now, much like Pearl Harbor, Gettysburg, The Alamo, etc.)

...However, he does have the right to build the Mosque in NYC... but America doesn't have to agree with it nor do they have to accept it. (The Islamic Prayer/Community Center is slated to have a Mosque-like area within for prayer, yes? I'd imagine it follow the same rules of other Mosque's... but who knows for sure.)

@Mayo - Didn't you tell me to stop acting like a child? Real mature, kiddo.

The reason(s) some people are upset about this is because the group doing this is called The Cordoba Initiative. Cordoba is city in Spain that is famous for the mosque there: the mosque built on\out of the ruins of the cathedral that was destroyed in the course of the conquest of the area by Islamic forces. This is in line with a pseudo-tradition in Islam of constructing mosques at the sites of great victories\conquests. Naturally, given some of this Imam's comments about how our 'foreign policy,' which prior to9-11 consisted of aiding insurgents in Afghanistan and buying oil from Arabs, was the reason for the attack, some people have come to the conclusion the folks behind the proposed mosque are more than welcome to go fuck themselves.

Acting like anyone who doesn't provide their tacit endorsement of the mosque is somehow a thoughtless racist is just as dumb as some of the things being said by those opposed to the mosque.

As much as I generally enjoy Mayo's 'editorail corrections,' I think this one stepped a bit over the line.

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Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

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I think all religious monuments that aren't aesthetically pleasing are a waste of space, because religious buildings do roughly nothing except exist.



People are going to have to go out of their way to look at it; I walk past ground zero every day during my commute and the mosque won't be anywhere near my path, nor will it be visible from any part of that block.

Which is nice, since religious buildings are so plain these days. At least cathedrals are showy.



We're just having all the fun you should have been having 10 years ago.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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It's not a matter of if the building could be seen from standing on a pile of rubble, or if it can be seen from a 100-story building that may take WTC1/2's place, or if you can see it from your walk. (Others may see it from theirs, btw...) It's like Jubber and I said; people see the location of the mosque and how close it is to Ground Zero as a symbol of their victory. Sure, they're not building the Mosque atop the rubble of the WTC1/2 because they're not allowed to... yet... but they're getting pretty damn close. It's two blocks away... which, in New York, is a two minute walk. It's about 1/10 miles away...


When I was 16? Good defense for the 'mature' comment...?

First off, fuck the people who died on 9/11. They're just some poor schmuks and given how many assholes I meet on a daily basis I have a hard time believing there weren't at least 750-1000 people who weren't worth the pedestal they seem to be placed on. The only people that should be held in any reverence are the fire fighters and the police.


Of whose victory? You see 9/11 as a victory for all of Islam?



The first few days after 9/11 I kept hearing over and over how we should continue to live like Americans and not let a terrorist act change our way of life or the terrorists win. This whole terrorists winning is generally nonsense, but losing the open and accepting (and forgiving) ideal of the 'American way of life' is more damaging than 3 thousand people dying and a couple of demolished buildings.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Yeah to hell with the innocent civilians who were murdered wholesale huh?

At least when we murder civilians, while regrettable, is an accident.


You're a douche.

So the Fire Fighters and Police (Many who died on 9/11, as well) are more respected for doing their jobs when most of the people who died on 9/11 were doing just that - working in the trade centers or pentagon? Just because you attract a plethora of shit heads doesn't mean everyone is a shit head.

9/11 was not a victory for all of Islam; 9/11 was an attack from radical Islam. The Mosque would be seen by those radical, bat shit crazy Muslims as a victory. There isn't any investigation as to where the funding is coming from so we don't know if any radical elements are actually funding this as a symbol of victory. Regardless, whoever funds it, many believe radical Muslims will still see it as a victory.


Well, the terrorists want to cause terror, instill fear and dismantle our way of life. In some ways they are winning on that front since we are forced to take a more skeptical position and bolster our security while finding and fighting them in their homelands. Remember, we're still at war with a radical ideology.

We were attacked by the British. We fought back.
We were attacked by our own neighbors. We fought back.
We were attacked by the Japanese. We fought back.
We were attacked by radical Islam. We're fighting back.

Laying down and taking it up the ass by these guys isn't the American way of life. I think it's legitimate to be skeptical of the Imam's intentions and motivations... it's not legitimate to out-right oppose the Mosque, as Usd stated earlier.

Also, since this thread is still wrongly named, I'd like to know where you come up with this open, accepting and forgiving American way comes from? Rev. Sharpton... Rev. Jackson... would you care to chime in?

I'm not saying they weren't innocent, but they weren't the Saints of the States. Apparently it's difficult to accept that people of the same religion/race/ethnicity can have different opinions, but if some of these morons don't, we're going to end up sinking into the never ending squabbles that plague the middle east right now. Hold the people who actually did this responsible, not some Muslims who just want a community center.

Upon re-reading my post, it did come across very heartless. I generally just write whatever I'm thinking then clean it up, and in this case I lost the gist of what I was trying to say and came out pretty harsh.



Were the atomic bombs accidents? Was the firebombing of Dresden an oopsy? We've extracted from the innocents of Iraq our pound of flesh many tons over, our involvement there was a direct and unprovoked decision, not an accident. Even discounting "collateral" deaths from the fighting, there were still intentional killings. The rape and murder of a young girl and the slaughter of her family by members of the 502nd, the army personnel who confessed to killing 4 prisoners and were sentenced in Germany, the list goes on and on.

The action of a radical terrorist doesn't condemn their entire religion just as the murder of a prisoner at Abu Ghraib doesn't condemn the entirety of our armed forces. Seeing a muslim as anything more than a muslim based on what you think about other muslims is racism(theolocism?). Seeing a black man and immediately assuming they are out of work, had 3 kids to 3 different mothers, and smoke crack is racist. Seeing a place of worship and immediately equating it to terrorist acts is racist. You can say "oh well ya know it's just a bad idea", but none of the reasons why it's a bad idea can be voiced without 9/11 or terrorists. There's no coloration and no reason to assume a muslim isn't just a muslim.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Double Post!


Yeah like I said it was harsher than I meant, but yes, the police and the fire fighters (and emt and whomever else went in to help) are more worthy of respect.



This right here is where the argument gets really dumb. If these radicals are so batshit crazy insane, what will it matter if there is a mosque there or not? To them we're still satan. It would be a much bigger injustice to say: "You can't build this here because you're a muslim. If it were a church you could. A synagogue would be nice even, but no mosques".





So lets say the King of Saudi Arabia donates every penny to the project. What exactly would that mean? Saudi Arabia is a very important ally, a very islamic state, a great beneficiary of US purchasing, and also the home country of most of the 9/11 hijackers. But wait, that's something like what's already happened. Three Hundred-Thousand has been donated by the Kingdom Foundation, the personal charity of Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal. The same Saudi Prince who is the second largest share-holder in that bastion of american patriotism, Fox News. So does this make the mosque a terrorist training ground, or is fox news an american quisling?





If you think we are going to defeat an ideology with anything but complete genocide you're in for a long fight. Some men can't be reasoned with, but occupation only begets more radicals. Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?

Dvergar /
Quisling

If burning a Koran is used as a recruitment tool for our enemies and if they see a withdrawal from Iraq as a victory which emboldens them then what would they see the Mosque as - remember, this has been a dated practice of Islam to show conquest. Still, he has a legal right to build his Mosque/Community Center but a majority of New Yorkers (and Americans, I saw) oppose the proposed location. If he wants to help build a bond between Americans and Islam then relocating elsewhere in the city would be a good show of friendship and concern for this countries feelings. Instead, he's shown a refusal to cooperate and he's shown no empathy for the residents... and that isn't going to go over well.

I'm not sure where you live but I imagine the concern of NYC residents is greater than that of either of us. Many of them experienced first hand the tragedy on 9/11 - They lost their friends, family, neighbors, etc. They felt the towers fall. They helped discover body parts for months and years to come. Their interpretation of 'Ground Zero' may not be the same as yours or mine. They might consider the boundaries to exist outside the fenced in area of the WTC... like the debris field, or maybe to include buildings damaged by attack.


It wouldn't make a difference unless the Saudi prince is a direct supporter of Al Qaeda, supported the attacks, etc. To brand the Saudi prince as a supporter of terrorism would be like branding Clinton as a supporter of terrorism because of Timothy McVeigh. No connection other than nationality. Even if the Saudi prince did donate 100%, if he has no direct ties to terrorism, then I don't see the problem. (Right now, his donation is only %0.3 of the project.) I don't think anyone is criticizing all Muslims of being radicalized (although I do criticize Islam/Koran as not being the Religion of Peace that every says it is) - I think we're criticizing the judgement and location of the Mosque. It's insensitive.


We supported our current enemies during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan - We didn't occupy them. Still, they (radical Islam) declared war on us. They bombed our embasies. They attacked our naval ships. They tried to take out the WTC in 1993 and finally got it right in 2001. We've tried sitting on our hands and hoped we wouldn't get attacked... now we're occupying them because they obviously need to be dealt with. (Watch them or kill them, I don't care.)

As for being friends... I don't think we'll be friends with Radical Islam. They don't have the freedoms to explore the world outside their religion and they're brain-washed and forced to take literal meaning of the Koran. If they don't, they're punished. The problem (in my opinion) is inside the Koran. It explicitly tells them to not befriend anyone who isn't Muslim and I think that is where the hurdle is at. They're like Christian fundamentalists; crazy, brainwashed and dangerous.

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