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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:26 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Rathmoon wrote:
Laws encourage a black market. Black markets encourage violence, organized gangs, and dangerous products. Anti-drug laws put non-violent users who need addiction treatment in jail with violent criminals and does nothing to solve the issue, in addition to costing the tax payer more...

It is indeed practictal for the federal government to do nothing, so that the true communities can be allowed to focus on the individual treatment and their own laws. Maybe people in North Dakota don't need the same laws as Los Angeles.

Government generally potentiates the problems when it comes to hindering personal liberty. Let society freely try to act on problem solving without the use of force by government thugs.

To paraphrase an old quote, those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither and lose both.

Reiteration of my point: Society can act(if you free us to), without the use of federal government thugs and force that causes unintended consequences at the cost of the entire society's security and freedom.
Legalize freedom baby.


I see this as a copout. Franklin wasn't an anarchist. Government, and state influence on social morality and such, are positive and inevitable but imperfect things that are necessitated by the imperfections of human nature. The tradeoffs we make between perfect freedom/perfect nature and controlling/institutionalizing everything aren't completely zero sum - sometimes, that tradeoff is good and necessary.

We shouldn't just say "no regulation", instead, we should think in terms of how to create better regulation.

Institutions exist because experience proved them necessary.

Rathmoon wrote:
A former best friend of mine died trying to receive treatment for his opiate addiction by the government encouraged treatment of methadone (lack of being able to safely obtain oxycontin or a safer dose of heroin). Methadone killed him, but perhaps if it were legal for the opening of opiate treatment clinics or at least a legally available product; he could have been allowed to wane himself safely off of the addiction with the assistance of medical professionals instead of fear of breaking laws and further ruining his life to fix his problem.


I see methadone as another sort of copout - a state mandated one. Hence I emphasize in my view that the solution to drug abuse is simply to bring structure to these people's lives, and put them in a situation where they have neither the opportunity nor the inclination to abuse.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:31 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
We shouldn't just say "no regulation", instead, we should think in terms of how to create better regulation.

Institutions exist because experience proved them necessary.

I see methadone as another sort of copout - a state mandated one. Hence I emphasize in my view that the solution to drug abuse is simply to bring structure to these people's lives, and put them in a situation where they have neither the opportunity nor the inclination to abuse.


So, in an effort to rehabilitate the user, instead of addressing the actual roots of the problem, you're more inclined to use a faceless method to transplant.

Be careful what you wish for, Ethan. You're going to get it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:14 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Tehra wrote:
So, in an effort to rehabilitate the user, instead of addressing the actual roots of the problem, you're more inclined to use a faceless method to transplant.

Be careful what you wish for, Ethan. You're going to get it.


The root of the problem is society, and society isn't working because of the actions of individuals...and the problem is not corrected because people have this idea that society doesn't need to get individual people back on track.

Like I said, it's a two-way street. Lofty-sounding libertarian rhetoric doesn't corroborate with the gritty realities of life in question. Drug abusers aren't the putative subjects of a Lockesian debate, they're individuals who do great harm to those around them.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:23 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Aestu wrote:
I see this as a copout. Franklin wasn't an anarchist. Government, and state influence on social morality and such, are positive and inevitable but imperfect things that are necessitated by the imperfections of human nature. The tradeoffs we make between perfect freedom/perfect nature and controlling/institutionalizing everything aren't completely zero sum - sometimes, that tradeoff is good and necessary.

We shouldn't just say "no regulation", instead, we should think in terms of how to create better regulation.

Institutions exist because experience proved them necessary.

Rathmoon wrote:
A former best friend of mine died trying to receive treatment for his opiate addiction by the government encouraged treatment of methadone (lack of being able to safely obtain oxycontin or a safer dose of heroin). Methadone killed him, but perhaps if it were legal for the opening of opiate treatment clinics or at least a legally available product; he could have been allowed to wane himself safely off of the addiction with the assistance of medical professionals instead of fear of breaking laws and further ruining his life to fix his problem.


I see methadone as another sort of copout - a state mandated one. Hence I emphasize in my view that the solution to drug abuse is simply to bring structure to these people's lives, and put them in a situation where they have neither the opportunity nor the inclination to abuse.


I'm not stating an absolutist form of no governance, I'm stating keep the federal government thug out so that communities can be allowed to focus on their own needs.

And that's fine if a local community want to institutionalize something, unless of course that institution is backed up with force to make sure there's no alternatives. If you're going to institutionalize why do they often BAN competition? Ex: Some city's have been outsourcing services to the private sector because it has been more cost efficient and effective for them. Some citys ban certain services that their city provides so that you HAVE to use their service at possibly high prices and inferior service; *AHEM: a monopoly. Why not just legalize competition? This isn't always the case, but what's wrong with it?

You have every right to desire to bring stability to other's lives and offer assistance, what you do not have is the right to force your views of what stability is upon them if their actions are not harming you. Suggesting society to control people through government force (er institutionally) simply because you think your method is better... is anti-liberty. We accepted a statue of liberty to remind us of what liberty is; nowadays maybe we should change it every election to a statue of whoever is President since they know so much better than us and the Constitution and so many people buying into an anti-liberty philosophy.

My friend as an example was trying to do everything legally possible to detox himself but the do-gooder anti-liberty laws kept him from obtaining the best possible treatment, and an unintended consequence happened because of those kind of laws.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions; let's just not hinder liberty in the process plz.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:32 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Aestu wrote:
Tehra wrote:
So, in an effort to rehabilitate the user, instead of addressing the actual roots of the problem, you're more inclined to use a faceless method to transplant.

Be careful what you wish for, Ethan. You're going to get it.


The root of the problem is society, and society isn't working because of the actions of individuals...and the problem is not corrected because people have this idea that society doesn't need to get individual people back on track.

Like I said, it's a two-way street. Lofty-sounding libertarian rhetoric doesn't corroborate with the gritty realities of life in question. Drug abusers aren't the putative subjects of a Lockesian debate, they're individuals who do great harm to those around them.


What drug was Sigmund Freud on? He clearly caused great harm to the world, along with others like Pink Floyd. & I'd say that (non-sarcastically) most marijuana smokers cause harm to no one. Except maybe in those violent days of the first Woodstock. lol


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:43 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Tehra wrote:
So, in an effort to rehabilitate the user, instead of addressing the actual roots of the problem, you're more inclined to use a faceless method to transplant.

Be careful what you wish for, Ethan. You're going to get it.


The root of the problem is society, and society isn't working because of the actions of individuals...and the problem is not corrected because people have this idea that society doesn't need to get individual people back on track.

The problem is not corrected because some people have this idea that society will take care of it, and others believe that it's not the place of society to take care of it.

Meanwhile no one is actually taking care of it.

Aestu wrote:
Like I said, it's a two-way street. Lofty-sounding libertarian rhetoric doesn't corroborate with the gritty realities of life in question. Drug abusers aren't the putative subjects of a Lockesian debate, they're individuals who do great harm to those around them.


Many times, they're individuals that had great harm done to them. Plants grow in shit, people don't.

Rathmoon wrote:
What drug was Sigmund Freud on? He clearly caused great harm to the world, along with others like Pink Floyd. & I'd say that (non-sarcastically) most marijuana smokers cause harm to no one. Except maybe in those violent days of the first Woodstock. lol


Cocaine. It's a hell of a drug.


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Last edited by Tehra on Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:44 pm  
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Actions not harming others is not so black and white.

Who pays the costs when children don't receive as good upbringings as they should because of divorce or drug abuse? Who pays the costs when drug addicts drop out of jobs and society because they are in a state of total apathy? Who pays the costs when society is dragged down to the lowest common denominator by vulgarity and brazenness?

Merely because homes don't get burned down or people don't get killed or their property stolen, or because the problems don't have a hard-and-fast financial cost, doesn't mean we aren't all damaged by them - that our country is not so good a place to live. The damage done to our level of social development, our culture, is manifest.

And so you have what we do today, with a low level of political and philosophical discourse, a downward spiral in people's level of intelligence and education, and an increasingly foolish and apathetic populace like something out of Fahrenheit 451.

And yes, that is a definitely, distinguishably worse, undesirable, and avoidable outcome. And yes, society does have a right to take measures to prevent it. Even if that means putting limits on freedom. Because total freedom is no freedom at all. There is such a thing as sacrificing a certain degree of freedom to become more free.

I'll give an excellent example. There is a state-mandated monopoly on letter delivery. Courier and parcel services excepted, of course - this means you cannot underbid the USPS and offer to deliver mail for 25 cents a letter. Why? Because it would be dangerous to society. Because companies would inevitably try to economize by limiting service to outlying regions, or by ducking liability when something doesn't go as it should. The fact it might be cheaper for individual consumers, or they might do it more efficiently in some respects, doesn't outweigh the costs to stability...nor the cost to freedom by prohibiting it.

The best way to ensure freedom is to centralize authority. Loss of freedom is less often the result of putting absolute power in the hands of one man or institution than by a lack of clear authority: diffiusion of power into a clique of elite organizations, or an impermeable status quo, without a great equalizer to ensure fairness for all - the state.

rathmoon wrote:
You have every right to desire to bring stability to other's lives and offer assistance, what you do not have is the right to force your views of what stability is upon them if their actions are not harming you. Suggesting society to control people through government force (er institutionally) simply because you think your method is better... is anti-liberty. We accepted a statue of liberty to remind us of what liberty is; nowadays maybe we should change it every election to a statue of whoever is President since they know so much better than us and the Constitution and so many people buying into an anti-liberty philosophy.


The problem with this is, that's not life. People are shaped by their experiences. True freedom, in the sense you describe it, does not exist. Freedom is best upheld by creating a world where everyone can grow to their full potential. And that sometimes means taking inimical measures.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:45 pm  
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Tehra wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Tehra wrote:
So, in an effort to rehabilitate the user, instead of addressing the actual roots of the problem, you're more inclined to use a faceless method to transplant.

Be careful what you wish for, Ethan. You're going to get it.


The root of the problem is society, and society isn't working because of the actions of individuals...and the problem is not corrected because people have this idea that society doesn't need to get individual people back on track.

The problem is not corrected because some people have this idea that society will take care of it, and others believe that it's not the place of society to take care of it.

Meanwhile no one is actually taking care of it.


I think this is way closer to the truth.

Tehra wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Like I said, it's a two-way street. Lofty-sounding libertarian rhetoric doesn't corroborate with the gritty realities of life in question. Drug abusers aren't the putative subjects of a Lockesian debate, they're individuals who do great harm to those around them.

Many times, they're individuals that had great harm done to them. Plants grow in shit, people don't.


And whose job is it to clean up the shit? The shit won't clean up itself. Ergo, libertarianism fails.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:48 pm  
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Guys, steroids are illegal in sports, we should ban drugs in the production of music!

I have nothing relevant to add.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:53 pm  
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you mention Fahrenheit 451. combine that with brave new world.

Much of the past is trivial, and people are guilty of placing importance on trivial things, but you're guilty of trivializing the people.

The sooner you stop perceiving people as filler, the quicker you'll understand that you are no better nor worse, and you have your own shit to clean up.

Note: clean up, not fling at others.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Tehra wrote:
you mention Fahrenheit 451. combine that with brave new world.

Much of the past is trivial, and people are guilty of placing importance on trivial things, but you're guilty of trivializing the people.

The sooner you stop perceiving people as filler, the quicker you'll understand that you are no better nor worse, and you have your own shit to clean up.

Note: clean up, not fling at others.

I don't think people are filler. I think society makes them that way. I more or less subscribe to the tabula rasa view of human nature.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:01 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Tehra wrote:
you mention Fahrenheit 451. combine that with brave new world.

Much of the past is trivial, and people are guilty of placing importance on trivial things, but you're guilty of trivializing the people.

The sooner you stop perceiving people as filler, the quicker you'll understand that you are no better nor worse, and you have your own shit to clean up.

Note: clean up, not fling at others.

I don't think people are filler. I think society makes them that way. I more or less subscribe to the tabula rasa view of human nature.


You were saying...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:12 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Tehra wrote:


Aestu wrote:
I think society makes them that way.

And so you have what we do today, with a low level of political and philosophical discourse, a downward spiral in people's level of intelligence and education, and an increasingly foolish and apathetic populace like something out of Fahrenheit 451.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:12 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
I'll give an excellent example. There is a state-mandated monopoly on letter delivery. Courier and parcel services excepted, of course - this means you cannot underbid the USPS and offer to deliver mail for 25 cents a letter. Why? Because it would be dangerous to society. Because companies would inevitably try to economize by limiting service to outlying regions, or by ducking liability when something doesn't go as it should. The fact it might be cheaper for individual consumers, or they might do it more efficiently in some respects, doesn't outweigh the costs to stability...nor the cost to freedom by prohibiting it.

The problem with this is, that's not life. People are shaped by their experiences. True freedom, in the sense you describe it, does not exist. Freedom is best upheld by creating a world where everyone can grow to their full potential. And that sometimes means taking inimical measures.


Ask Japan what they've done about letter mail (they recently voted to privatize it). So it's not some far-out ideal or anything.

Personal liberty is a more defined philosophy than blunt term "true freedom". Limiting government from liberty infringement isn't always about limiting the current person in charge of making the rules, it's also about limiting who might be the NEXT person in charge making the rules. Fear of "what could happen" is a common tactic used nowadays too, "surrender your freedoms or the terrorists will you get you", "surrender your rights to compete with the government for business or else bad things could happen".

I think you missed what I mentioned about just legalizing competition. Thanks for the respectful debate by the way.


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Last edited by Rathmoon on Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:16 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Tehra wrote:


Aestu wrote:
I think society makes them that way.

And so you have what we do today, with a low level of political and philosophical discourse, a downward spiral in people's level of intelligence and education, and an increasingly foolish and apathetic populace like something out of Fahrenheit 451.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8fm3Z7jgWM[/youtube]
kornlol


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