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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:10 pm  
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Polarizing this into a left-right issue is stupid. Nothing about his comments or NPR's response had anything to do with politics, and yet people leap to blame NPR for being too liberal or accuse conservatives of hating Muslims. It's easy to do, but it also misses the point.

As for the comments themselves, what would you think of a white person saying:
Quote:
when I get on a bus, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in black garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as blacks, I get worried. I get nervous.

I suspect that wouldn't go over well, and yet you are far more likely to be killed by a black (or white) person in America than by a Muslim.

Also, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. Nobody is suggesting that Juan Williams should be thrown into jail for his statements, but when you make public appearances as a representative of an organization you're expected to behave in a certain way. If Steve Jobs started shilling for Windows products, I doubt Apple would want to keep him around for long.


Last edited by Laelia on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:19 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Polarizing this into a left-right issue is stupid. Nothing about his comments or NPR's response had anything to do with politics, and yet people leap to blame NPR for being too liberal or accuse conservatives of hating Muslims. It's easy to do, but it also misses the point.

As for the comments themselves, what would you think of a white person saying:
Quote:
when I get on a bus, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in black garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as blacks, I get worried. I get nervous.

I suspect that wouldn't go over well, and yet you are far more likely to be killed by a black (or white) person in America than by a Muslim.


Your analogy isn't quite right. This is closer to his statement:

"When I get on a bus, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in gangbanger garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as gangbangers, I get worried. I get nervous."


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:28 pm  
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Your modification makes it too specific. "Muslim garb" is undefined, in the same way as Laelia's "black garb" is purposefully ambiguous. If Williams had straight up said he was afraid of terrorists in particular, no one would have a problem with it, just like no one has a problem with the thought of being nervous around gangbangers.

The issue was expanding that into "Muslim garb," because it targets far too broad a population. I don't know about you, but I'm never nervous around tiny Indonesian girls in headscarves, and that's pretty clearly Muslim garb.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:30 pm  
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Basically, the guy makes a good point, just in an improper way.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:31 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
Basically, the guy makes a good point, just in an improper way.


And when you're representing one news organization on another news organization's show, wording is everything.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:33 pm  
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I mean i understand why he got canned. I just think he should've gotten a chance to apologize and rephrase. the people who fired him did it over the phone and wouldn't speak to him when he went into the office.


EDIT: Halting a discussion isn't a way to progress.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:35 pm  
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Callysta wrote:
Your analogy isn't quite right. This is closer to his statement:

"When I get on a bus, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in gangbanger garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as gangbangers, I get worried. I get nervous."


No, it's not. "Gangbangers" are a explicitly violent group, and people who dress in styles developed by violent street gangs are implying they're part of that group. Someone dressed as a "Muslim" (presumably meaning an Arab Muslim) is following the heritage of a largely non-violent cultural group, and in no way is implying that they're part of a terrorist organization.

USD wrote:
I mean i understand why he got canned. I just think he should've gotten a chance to apologize and rephrase. the people who fired him did it over the phone and wouldn't speak to him when he went into the office.

EDIT: Halting a discussion isn't a way to progress.


From what I read about it they weren't very happy with the quality of his work and probably took this as an excuse to fire him. I agree it could have been done better, though, and perhaps discussing the issue would have been more enlightening than instantly turning it into a polarized political mess.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:42 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Translation: You do not agree with me, and since you do not, you must somehow be irredeemably evil. I choose to believe your particular brand of evil is racism, and brand you as such.

You aren't seriously trying to argue that racism plays no role in the tea party movement, are you? I mean, there are democratic candidates that are being attacked on their ethnicity for fuck's sake.
http://www.wtov9.com/politics/25306164/detail.html
Quote:
A West Virginia group led by Republican tea party activists is running an ad emphasizing longtime Democratic Rep. Nick Rahall's Arab-American ancestry.


Do I even have to bring up the Burlington Coat Factory Community Center protest, where a construction worker almost got the shit beat out of him because he was black (and black automatically equates to muslim)?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4[/youtube]

Racism being a major motivator for this whole Obama backlash is pretty much a fact. Then again, conservatives have a wonderful track record when it comes to plugging their ears when facts don't go their way (ex. Iraq, Global Warming, Obama's birth certificate, etc.).

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Don't talk to me about republican/conservative/libertarian racism until the guys on your side of the aisle stop pulling that bullshit.

There may be some black republicans, but there aren't many.

Quote:
Some things that are related to race have nothing to do with racism. If Asians committed the bulk of violent crime in this country, people would be duly concerned about ninja attacks while walking home from work at night. At present, the people blowing shit up in the name of their God are mainly Arab Muslims (crackpot Christian extremists generally shoot their victims and avoid the collateral damage--every group has their nut-jobs), so it's not unreasonable for people, even Arab Muslims, to be a little concerned about being blown the fuck up, because honestly, being blown the fuck up is not currently on my 'to do' list.

There's a line between worried about being "blown the fuck up" and being worried that every muslim you see is carrying a bomb. For example, I'm pretty sure that I don't like to get robbed, but I don't get nervous whenever a black man walks past me.

Also, between the IRA, McVeigh, and other abortion bombers, catholics have blown up a lot of shit too. Why aren't you so weary of them as you are people that look and pray different than you?

Quote:
On a more important note, I'm tired of this "phobe" bullshit. I'm not necessarily afraid of some group of people just because I'm aware of a pattern (namely religious nuts of a particular variety blowing shit up) and think there's a reason to be concerned about it. Give it another ten years of losing the language, and the dumb asses in our society will start thinking phobe is Greek for "hate" instead of "fear" at this rate.

Have you ever listened to some of these people? They think that Obama being president or that building a mosque in NYC is the next step to instituting Sharia law in this country. You might not be afraid of muslims taking over the states, but there's a hefty chunk of your party that legitimately thinks that Obama is working with terrorists to change the USA into an Islamic theocracy.

EDIT:
Quote:
"Generalizations and stereotypes are bad because I'm a progressive free-thinker, void of any preconceived opinions on anyone based on race, age, color, religion, etc... but all Republicans are racists, bigots and xenophobes."

You deriving this from what I said pretty much proves my point on how people are willing to warp reality to fit their own world view. I literally never said anything about political leaning in that entire thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:47 pm  
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I think it's important for half of you people to even see that Williams was in support of Barbra Walters in his full statement and was jumping on Bill O'Reilly for saying that Muslims were our enemies. Juan, in fact, was saying the opposite.

Read it all for context.

Quote:
O’REILLY: Hi. I’m Bill O’Reilly. Thanks for watching us tonight.

The Muslim dilemma — that is the subject of this evening’s talking points memo. So, in case you just got back from Easter Island, I, your humble correspondent, am causing trouble once again.

Today on “The View,” the ladies addressed the shootout I had with them last Thursday when I said that building a mosque near Ground Zero is inappropriate because Muslims killed us there. That caused Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar to walk off the set.

Of course, what I said is absolutely true, but is insensitive to some. In a perfect world, you always say Muslim terrorists killed us, but at this point, I thought that was common knowledge. I guess I was wrong.

Anyway, the heated controversy continues and goes far beyond me and “The View” ladies. It has entered the fabric of America.

Barbara Walters said something interesting today. She said that the nation is very angry. Therefore, commentators must watch the rhetoric. OK.

But my question to Ms. Walters is this: Why is America so angry?

There are a number of answers to that question. One of them is that folks are fed up with politically correct nonsense. There is no question there is a Muslim problem in the world and if “The View” ladies will not acknowledge that, that’s their problem, because most Americans well understand the danger coming out of the Muslim world.

Ms. Walters went on to say that my statement about the Japanese attacking the USA in World War II is not a valid comparison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTERS: I think that what Bill O’Reilly said was totally wrong. I also feel that on his program when he compared it to Germany and Japan, which he did, and said, well, you wouldn’t have been built monuments — countries, they were not religion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O’REILLY: With all due respect to Barbara Walters, who has handled herself with dignity in this controversy, she is misguided.

American forces had to remove the Taliban government in Afghanistan because it supported the al Qaeda killers. The U.S. and many other countries are now desperately trying to prevent Iran from building a nuclear bomb because most everyone understands some crazy jihadists may use that bomb to ignite a holocaust. Right now the countries of Russia, China, the Philippines, many nations in Africa and Thailand are all fighting Muslim insurrections.

The Muslim threat to the world is not isolated. It’s huge! It involves nations and millions of people.

Yet, the left in America will not face that fact.

“Talking Points” has given President Obama has given a pass on his soft rhetoric towards the Muslim world, because he needs to get nations like Pakistan to cooperate with us. The president can’t afford tough rhetoric like the kind I’m giving you tonight. That is perfectly understandable.

In Germany, however, Chancellor Angela Merkel is getting tough. She told the world that attempts to build multi-cultural society in her country have, quote, “utterly failed.” Ms. Merkel has enormous problem with 5 million Muslims who are not assimilating into German society.

In France, the parliament there has outlawed burqas after that country endured rioting in Muslim areas that the police could not control.

Here in the USA, we are lucky. The vast majority of American Muslims are good citizens and deplore the extreme actions in the Muslim world. But they know there is a clash of civilizations in play.

Despite all that, Ms. Goldberg was deeply offended by my statement about 9/11. Here’s what she said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDBERG: When you say Muslims are responsible for 9/11, does that mean Muhammad Ali? Because Muhammad Ali is a Muslim. Does that mean Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

To me, you need to be distinct when you say things like this because this is a volatile time. You cannot just throw stuff around like that in my opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O’REILLY: Now, that statement is worth addressing. No sane individual thinks Muhammad Ali or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is responsible for 9/11.

But the reality is that most Americans are uneasy with the Muslim world in general because moderate Muslims have not stepped up in a visible way to help combat the jihadists. Look at all the problems we’re having with Pakistan. We’ve sent that country billions of dollars hoping to motivate them to fight the Taliban and al Qaeda.

If Whoopi Goldberg doesn’t think there’s a Muslim problem, she ought to ask President Obama about it.

The cold truth is that in the world today, jihad, aided and abetted by some Muslim nations, is the biggest threat on the planet. If Iran gets a nuclear weapon, Israel and other countries are in grave danger.

So, I have had enough of the political correct nonsense and I condemn the far-left fanatics who label people with whom they disagree “bigots.” That’s what Joy Behar did again today, which is simply stunning because as Laura Ingraham pointed out last Friday, Ms. Behar’s anti- Christian analysis has been off the charts.

And then there is Rosie O’Donnell who used to host “The View.” Here’s what she said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ROSIE O’DONNELL, ACTRESS: Bill O’Reilly, you know, what does he do besides incite kind of hatred? What does he do besides that?

JANETTE BARBER, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: To stand there and say Muslims killed us, I hope you didn’t take that wrong. I didn’t mean anything bad about them. It’s like I hate it when they lie within the same sentence, at least take a break before you lie.

O’DONNELL: But it’s like that’s what Bill O’Reilly does. Why would you book him?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

O’REILLY: Now, Ms. O’Donnell’s analysis reminded me of this –

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O’DONNELL: Radical Christianity is just as threatening as radical Islam in a country like America where we have a separation of church and state. We’re a democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O’REILLY: Interesting. Nobody walked off the set of “The View” when Rosie O’Donnell said that. Did they?

As “Talking Points” stated on Friday, there is a reason behind the madness. Many in the Muslim world despise the United States because we are Israel’s biggest supporter. Any of the liberal precincts believe our support for Israel is wrong and that we have ignited Muslim anger. It is our fault that some Muslims hate us.

I don’t think the ladies on “The View” see it that way. But certainly, the far-left has held that opinion for quite some time.

Finally, wherever I went this weekend, people were high-fiving me. It was amazing. People yelling out windows, “O’Reilly, keep going,” that kind of stuff.

Are all these people bigots? Do they all hate Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

That’s just nuts. This has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with politics. Americans are simply fed up with politicians and media people denying the obvious. There is a dangerous problem in the Muslim world and once again, I call for all peace-loving Muslims to join the United States and other conscientious nations to fight the jihadists to defeat radical Islam. And that’s the memo.

In a moment, Juan and Mary Katharine will tell me where I’m going wrong on all of this.

And later, how is the O’Reilly view Muslim controversy playing on talk radio? Right back with those reports.

O’REILLY: Continuing now with our lead story, danger from the Muslim world.

Joining us from Washington FOX analysts Mary Katharine Ham and Juan Williams.

So, Juan, I got to tell everybody, own up to this, that talking points memo was really written by Alan Colmes.

So, where am I going wrong there, Juan.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, actually, I hate to say this to you because I don’t want to get your ego going. But I think you’re right. I think, look, political correctness can lead to some kind of paralysis where you don’t address reality.

I mean, look, Bill, I’m not a bigot. You know the kind of books I’ve written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous.

Now, I remember also that when the Times Square bomber was at court, I think this was just last week. He said the war with Muslims, America’s war is just beginning, first drop of blood. I don’t think there’s any way to get away from these facts.

But I think there are people who want to somehow remind us all as President Bush did after 9/11, it’s not a war against Islam. President Bush went to a mosque –

O’REILLY: Well, there isn’t any theology involved in this at all from my perspective, Juan. But you live in the liberal precincts. You actually work for NPR, OK?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

O’REILLY: And it’s not about — it’s about politics as I said. But — my analysis is that this Israel thing and that liberals feel that United states is somehow guilty in the world, of exploitation and backing the wrong side, and it makes it easier for them to come up with this kind of crazy stuff that, well, you can’t really say the Muslims attacked us on 9/11.

WILLIAMS: No, but what Barbara Walters said to you –

O’REILLY: Were they Norwegians? I mean, come on.

WILLIAMS: Wait a second though, wait, hold on, because if you said Timothy McVeigh, the Atlanta bomber, these people who are protesting against homosexuality at military funerals, very obnoxious, you don’t say first and foremost, we got a problem with Christians. That’s crazy.

O’REILLY: But it’s not at that level. It doesn’t rise near to that level.

WILLIAMS: Correct. That’s — and when you said in the talking points memo a moment ago that there are good Muslims, I think that’s a point, you know?

O’REILLY: But everybody knows that, Juan. I mean, what are, in 3rd grade here or what?

WILLIAMS: No, you don’t — but you got to be — this is what Barbara Walters was saying –

O’REILLY: I got to be careful, you just said it. I got to be careful. I have got to qualify everything 50 times. You know what, Juan? I’m not doing it anymore. I’m not doing that anymore.

WILLIAMS: OK. So, be yourself. Take responsibility.

O’REILLY: But I’m not going to say, oh, it’s only a few. It’s only a tiny bit. It’s not, Juan. It’s whole nations, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, whole nations.

Go ahead, Mary Katharine. You want to get in here. Go.

MARY KATHARINE HAM, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all — first of all, the left only thinks that you should be careful with rhetoric in dangerous times when it’s a right winger using the rhetoric. When they’re doing it themselves, when it deals with other issues, they don’t care. So there’s a double standard there.

Second of all, there’s a distinction worth making between moderate and extremism Islam as you have made that point in the talking points, because frankly, as a conservative, if anybody who believes in the mission in Iraq where you are building up a society of moderate Muslims to push back on extremists, you have to believe in that distinction. So, I think that’s important to make.

But, this whole getting up and running off set because you don’t use the distinction in every single sentence you say, I think, was ridiculous and immature and they stopped the conversation, not you. It was them freaking out about a conservative position and leaving the stage to stop the conversation.

O’REILLY: All right. But, look, here’s the deal. Angela Merkel, all right, in the politically correct nation of Germany — Germany has gone from being a militaristic society to a politically correct society in a generation. OK?

Angela Merkel comes out today and says, “You know what? This is out of control in our country. We can’t control it anymore.”

So, if it’s only a few, and a couple and just in the mountains of Pakistan, that’s all, why is Angela Merkel having such a hard time? Why are the French banning burqas? You know why –

(CROSSTALK)

O’REILLY: Come on.

WILLIAMS: Because — they have a problem because people have stopped emphasizing and she went on to say, this integration assimilation.

O’REILLY: Why, Juan? Why?

WILLIAMS: — to live side by side. That was wrong-headed and because she sees it as a threat. I think that she pointed out that two of every three or so children under the age of 5 in Germany is Muslim.

O’REILLY: Juan, who is posing a problem in Germany? Is it the Muslims who have come there or the Germans?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

O’REILLY: Who’s causing the problem?

WILLIAMS: I think — I think — no, no, wait. See, you did it again. It’s extremists. It’s people who refuse to –

O’REILLY: It’s not extremists.

WILLIAMS: It’s a German society. They are the ones causing that problem.

(CROSSTALK)

O’REILLY: But, Juan, Merkel — according to Merkel, it’s not extremists. It’s most of the 5 million Muslims who have come there aren’t assimilating. That’s the problem.

HAM: And also what happens, Bill — Bill, also what happens is that when moderate Muslims want to assimilate or want to stand up, they run the risk of being blown up by their co-religionist who are extreme. So, that is — that’s a threat that moderate Christians and Jews don’t think.

O’REILLY: But that doesn’t happen in America where most Muslim- Americans have assimilated.

HAM: Because our society demands that people assimilate. That’s what we demand and that’s why it works here.

WILLIAMS: But, Bill, here’s a caution point. The other day in New York, some guy cuts a Muslim cabby’s neck and says he’s attacking him or you think about the protest at the mosque near Ground Zero –

HAM: That guy works at a liberal –

O’REILLY: Yes, he was a crackpot.

(CROSSTALK)

O’REILLY: Look, Americans are smart enough to know, Juan.

HAM: But I don’t think — the point is the rhetoric was not pushing him to do that.

WILLIAMS: I don’t know what is in that guy’s head. But I’m saying, we don’t want in America, people to have their rights violated to be attacked on the street because they heard a rhetoric from Bill O’Reilly and they act crazy. We’ve got to say to people as Bill was saying tonight, that guy is a nut.

O’REILLY: He is a nut. And I said that about the guy in Florida — who wanted to burn the Koran. I came town on him like crazy.

WILLIAMS: Correct. There you go.

O’REILLY: But I’ll tell you what — if there was going to be a backlash against Muslims, it would happened after 9/11. It didn’t happen in this country.

WILLIAMS: It didn’t happen in this country.

O’REILLY: It did not happen here. So, we are smart enough to understand who the good Muslims are and who the bad Muslims are. But to diminish the whole thing as the left wants to do, very dangerous. I have got to go, guys, as always.

WILLIAMS: That would be hypocrisy.

O’REILLY: All right. Thank you very much.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:32 pm  
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Mns wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
Translation: You do not agree with me, and since you do not, you must somehow be irredeemably evil. I choose to believe your particular brand of evil is racism, and brand you as such.

You aren't seriously trying to argue that racism plays no role in the tea party movement, are you? I mean, there are democratic candidates that are being attacked on their ethnicity for fuck's sake.
http://www.wtov9.com/politics/25306164/detail.html
Quote:
A West Virginia group led by Republican tea party activists is running an ad emphasizing longtime Democratic Rep. Nick Rahall's Arab-American ancestry.

I think we'll argue that racism plays a smaller role than you think. You think all Tea Partiers and Republicans are racists, bigots, xenophobes or whatever else. That's much farther from the truth. Just because you can link a few fringe people who make headlines doesn't mean the entire movement is what you say it is.

Quote:
Do I even have to bring up the Burlington Coat Factory Community Center protest, where a construction worker almost got the shit beat out of him because he was black (and black automatically equates to muslim)?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4[/youtube]

What was that about warping logic and distorting the truth? That guy didn't 'almost' get his ass kicked. He got into an argument. There wasn't any pushing, punching, shoving, etc. Obviously, there were some high emotions but there wasn't a scene like you say there was.

Quote:
Racism being a major motivator for this whole Obama backlash is pretty much a fact. Then again, conservatives have a wonderful track record when it comes to plugging their ears when facts don't go their way (ex. Iraq, Global Warming, Obama's birth certificate, etc.).

Fair enough. Democrats, Progressives, Liberals... same thing. What about the 9/11 truthers? What about the people who say we went into Iraq for oil or to get some revenge? What about those who said Hurricane Katrina and the faulty levy was a way to kill a bunch of black people? You've got them too. I could debate you on your examples but I'll do that elsewhere, if we haven't beaten that horse once before.

The true motivator isn't race - it's Obama. My logic is this:
Racists existed before Obama was nominated and subsequently elected. The racists couldn't turn the tide of the election, therefore, the racists don't have the power you assume they have. Obama won on promises. He hasn't delivered in the way his supporters would have hoped. They wanted a transparent government and they haven't gotten that. They wanted him to do something about the debt... and, instead, he's done half the damage Bush did in one quarter the time. They wanted bi-partisanship, and instead, they received more polarity. (Don't even try to say Republicans are obstructionists - You guys controlled both houses and still couldn't get the job done.) Maybe people are upset that the unemployment rate has been steadly floating around 10%, after being assured it wouldn't peak 8%. Maybe people are upset that there isn't the liquidity in the market Obama promised? Maybe people are upset that the economy, as a whole, is still in the shitter. Maybe that's why they're upset.

Insted, you, as always, use race as your primary method to attack the other party in an attempt to discredit them. It's a tired tactic you've used against me for years now. It's old.

Quote:
Quote:
Don't talk to me about republican/conservative/libertarian racism until the guys on your side of the aisle stop pulling that bullshit.

There may be some black republicans, but there aren't many.

You're right. Blacks are largely democratic voters. Same with other minorities. In this last election, more blacks came out to vote for the man who will advance their race. Is that not racist? Are the blacks who didn't vote for the white guy racist?

Quote:
Quote:
Some things that are related to race have nothing to do with racism. If Asians committed the bulk of violent crime in this country, people would be duly concerned about ninja attacks while walking home from work at night. At present, the people blowing shit up in the name of their God are mainly Arab Muslims (crackpot Christian extremists generally shoot their victims and avoid the collateral damage--every group has their nut-jobs), so it's not unreasonable for people, even Arab Muslims, to be a little concerned about being blown the fuck up, because honestly, being blown the fuck up is not currently on my 'to do' list.

There's a line between worried about being "blown the fuck up" and being worried that every muslim you see is carrying a bomb. For example, I'm pretty sure that I don't like to get robbed, but I don't get nervous whenever a black man walks past me.

You're being rather obtuse. A group of extremist Muslism hi-jacked airplanes and used them against our interests. They've tried this several times since 9/11, too. Do you see a trend? How can you be angry with someone's response if they're nervous on an airplane because someone who appears to be a member of a group of people who have repeatedly tried to hi-jack airplanes to do harm to us, is also on that plane?

Also, would you get nervous walking past a black man in SE DC or Camden NJ - areas that are very hostile, dominantly black, and not safe for white people? What about walking past some weapon-wielding black panther members outside a voting center...?

Quote:
Quote:
On a more important note, I'm tired of this "phobe" bullshit. I'm not necessarily afraid of some group of people just because I'm aware of a pattern (namely religious nuts of a particular variety blowing shit up) and think there's a reason to be concerned about it. Give it another ten years of losing the language, and the dumb asses in our society will start thinking phobe is Greek for "hate" instead of "fear" at this rate.

Have you ever listened to some of these people? They think that Obama being president or that building a mosque in NYC is the next step to instituting Sharia law in this country. You might not be afraid of muslims taking over the states, but there's a hefty chunk of your party that legitimately thinks that Obama is working with terrorists to change the USA into an Islamic theocracy.

The loudest, most outrageous voices in any party get the most attention. Your side of the fence has your lunatic bat-shit crazies, too.

Quote:
Quote:
"Generalizations and stereotypes are bad because I'm a progressive free-thinker, void of any preconceived opinions on anyone based on race, age, color, religion, etc... but all Republicans are racists, bigots and xenophobes."

You deriving this from what I said pretty much proves my point on how people are willing to warp reality to fit their own world view. I literally never said anything about political leaning in that entire thing.

We know your political leanings, Mayo. You think poorly of Republicans. In fact, you think we're all racists - evidenced by your previous statement saying Republicans hate colored people. I just find it funny (and pathetic) that you're quick to make sweeping generalizations for one reason or another when you're attacking the other political party... but the moment someone does it to another group based on religion, sexual preference, or race (which you invoked race in your previous statement) then it's hands off taboo. You twist your own logic to lambaste everyone else when in reality you're no different. You have your prejudices.

Edit: Some clarity.


Last edited by Eturnalshift on Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:33 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Whether or not you believe that radical islam is trying to hurt us, the radical islams certainly do.

Obviously the vast majority of muslims are peaceful, just like the vast majority of irish catholics are. I don't think anyone is lumping a billion people into the same bucket.

I just think caution shows wisdom.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:41 pm  
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I walk through Newark every day. It's 90% black. Not once have I felt threatened or uncomfortable.



Though that might just be because I don't look like I'm worth mugging.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:33 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Is it racist that i love to fuck asian women?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:59 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Your modification makes it too specific. "Muslim garb" is undefined, in the same way as Laelia's "black garb" is purposefully ambiguous. If Williams had straight up said he was afraid of terrorists in particular, no one would have a problem with it, just like no one has a problem with the thought of being nervous around gangbangers.

The issue was expanding that into "Muslim garb," because it targets far too broad a population. I don't know about you, but I'm never nervous around tiny Indonesian girls in headscarves, and that's pretty clearly Muslim garb.


Which would be fine, except that was actually the point Williams was making! He was admitting that the underlying cause of the problem was a justified anxiety about a certain group of people committing a certain act, but expanded on that to say that we can't be controlled by our anxieties, and should realize that not everyone who is Muslim is nuttier than a Snickers bar. I think he even went on to say that it was irrational to have that reaction to "Muslim garb," however you want to define that, because none of the Muslims who have been in the exploding myself and everyone else business were wearing Muslim garb, they were dressed like everyone else to blend in.

Yuratuhl wrote:
And when you're representing one news organization on another news organization's show, wording is everything.


That would make sense, except that Williams stopped identifying himself as being affiliated with NPR while appearing on Fox quite some time ago...at NPR's request. He was no more representing NPR on Fox than he was implying it's OK to be afraid of Muslims.

There have already been the predictable deluge of more than inappropriate comments from other NPR personalities, some of which made on NPR's own programs. This wasn't about "editorial/journalistic standards," it was about the people at NPR, who are more than a little left of center, not liking Williams appearing on evil, evil Fox and looking for a reason, any reason, to toss him overboard.

Mns wrote:
You aren't seriously trying to argue that racism plays no role in the tea party movement, are you? I mean, there are democratic candidates that are being attacked on their ethnicity for fuck's sake.

Race plays no role at all for the majority of people you're trying to tar as racists because they have the temerity to disagree with your political opinions. We're sitting here discussing how "it's not all Muslims," and how every group has a fringe and it's sometimes unfair to lump the whole group in with a few retards...and yet you seem to think that it's OK to assume that the entire Tea Party movement/conservatives in general are racist-sexist-bigot-homophobes based on...nothing. "OH NO HOW DARE THEY ACCUSE A DEMOCRAT OF BACKING THE DEMOCRAT PRESIDENT, THAT IS BEYOND THE PALE." The "they're linking him to Obama, and Obama is black, so this is obviously racist" argument is fucking retarded, and you should feel bad about yourself for making it.

I agree that bringing up the gentleman's heritage is unacceptable behavior, but it's the same unacceptable behavior that I see in ads aimed at blacks that say if you elect republicans, you're going to get lynched and people are going to burn crosses on your lawn. That doesn't make it right, but your complaints ring hollow when the only complaints about the "race card" come when it's being aimed at your side.


Mns wrote:
Do I even have to bring up the Burlington Coat Factory Community Center protest, where a construction worker almost got the shit beat out of him because he was black (and black automatically equates to muslim)?


I'll see your silly video of people yelling at each other and raise you a video of SEIU protesters beating the shit out of tea party member...a black tea party member. Apparently, the guys in the white hoods fucked up and gave him a ticket to get in.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXBOgPCh9w[/youtube]

Mns wrote:
Also, between the IRA, McVeigh, and other abortion bombers, catholics have blown up a lot of shit too. Why aren't you so weary of them as you are people that look and pray different than you?

I'm probably not as wary of them because I don't live in England/Ireland in the 1980s and/or I'm not working in any capacity in an abortion clinic. Find one of those people and sure I'm sure they're absolutely wary of every other motherfucking person that passes in five feet of them.

Mns wrote:
You deriving this from what I said pretty much proves my point on how people are willing to warp reality to fit their own world view. I literally never said anything about political leaning in that entire thing.

Mns wrote:
What if I thought that every Native American was gonna scalp me or that every black person was gonna rob me? Its mind-boggling how people can warp logic to prove to themselves that they aren't racists (and by the way, many Americans ARE racist, so the line about "many americans are just as islamophobic as he is" doesn't earn pity points).

Well, you're implying everything you're being accused of saying. You start out with "What if," forming a hypothetical situation. You form this hypothetical situation as a means of saying "I'm not racist, and I clearly don't think those things that follow my what if." You then follow by saying "many Americans ARE racist," but having already indemnified yourself, are clearly pointing the finger at someone not yourself or of your own kind. So who are these "many Americans?" I think that's succinctly implied, as well. It makes it a little more obvious when you toss in how all republicans hate brown people, or whatever, so I don't think you can complain about Eternal's assessment or accuse him of being off-base here. You really were putting yourself on a moral high-horse and saying that you were the erudite open-minded example, and then shot that idea in the face with your own sweeping generalizations that people that don't agree with you are racists.

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