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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:44 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Just a few flaws in your line of reasoning...

Please note the large, bold words, from your own selection:
Aestu wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair

The Iran–Contra affair[1] (Persian: ماجرای مک‌فارلین, Spanish: caso Irán-contras) was a political scandal in the United States that came to light in November 1986. During the Reagan administration, President Ronald Reagan and other senior U.S. officials secretly facilitated the sale of arms to Iran, the subject of an arms embargo.[2] At least some U.S. officials also hoped that the arms sales would secure the release of hostages and allow U.S. intelligence agencies to fund the Nicaraguan Contras. Under the Boland Amendment, further funding of the Contras by the Reagan administration had been prohibited by Congress (backed by a strong majority opinion of the American public).

The affair began as an operation to improve U.S.-Iranian relations. It was planned that Israel would ship weapons to a relatively moderate, politically influential group of Iranians, and then the U.S. would resupply Israel and receive the Israeli payment. The Iranian recipients promised to do everything in their power to achieve the release of six U.S. hostages, who were being held by the Lebanese Shia Islamist group Hezbollah, who in turn were connected to the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution. The plan deteriorated into an arms-for-hostages scheme, in which members of the executive branch sold weapons to Iran in exchange for the release of the American hostages.[3][4] Large modifications to the plan were devised by Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North of the National Security Council in late 1985, in which a portion of the proceeds from the weapon sales was diverted to fund anti-Sandinista and anti-communist rebels, or Contras, in Nicaragua.


These were not the same hostages that were taken in Iran while Carter was still in office. As plainly stated in the other linked article, the hostages in question were taken by an Iranian student group, not Hezbollah.



Quote:
I can clearly picture him, on a cell phone calling Tehran while he’s dancing at the Inaugural Ball, “YOU GUYS WANT SOME GUNS? GIMME MY HOSTAGES.”


And again, from the other article,
Quote:
On November 2, the Iranian parliament finally set forth formal conditions for the hostages' release and eight days later Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher arrived in Algiers with the first US reply setting off a slow motion diplomatic shuffle between Washington, Algiers and Tehran.[102] Algerian diplomat Abdulkarim Ghuraib's mediation in negotiations between the U.S. and Iran resulted in the "Algiers Accords"[103] of January 19, 1981. The Algiers Accords called for Iran's immediate freeing of the hostages, the unfreezing of $7.9 billion of Iranian assets and immunity from lawsuits Iran might have faced in America, and a pledge by the United States that "it is and from now on will be the policy of the United States not to intervene, directly or indirectly, politically or militarily, in Iran's internal affairs." The Accords also created the Iran – United States Claims Tribunal (http://www.iusct.org/), and Iran deposited 1 Billion dollars in an escrow account to satisfy claims adjudicated by the Tribunal in favor of American businesses which had lost assets after the hostage takeover. The Tribunal closed to new claims by private individuals on January 19, 1982. In total, it received approximately 4,700 private US claims. The Tribunal has ordered payments by Iran to US nationals totaling over USD 2.5 billion. Almost all private claims have now been resolved; but several intergovernmental claims are still before the Tribunal.
The hostages were released on the day President Carter's term ended. While Carter had an "obsession" with finishing the matter before stepping down, the hostage takers are thought to have wanted the release delayed as punishment for his perceived support for the Shah.[104] Iranians insisted on payment in gold rather than US dollars so the U.S. government transferred 50 tonnes of gold to Iran while simultaneously taking ownership of an equivalent quantity of Iranian gold that had been frozen at the New York Federal Reserve Bank.


And again, please note the large, bold words:
Aestu wrote:
On March 4, 1987, Reagan returned to the airwaves in a nationally televised address, taking full responsibility for any actions that he was unaware of, and admitting that "what began as a strategic opening to Iran deteriorated, in its implementation, into trading arms for hostages."


Taking responsibility for what he was "unaware of" is one of those "buck stops here" accountability things. It wasn't an admission of guilt. It's not even relevant if it was, because the hostages you're talking about are not the ones that were taken while Carter was in office.

Aestu wrote:
CIA gave weapons under Bush during Carter admin
Reagan became prez
Humiliation for the current prez disappears
Reagan indicted, smiles it off
Bush pardons perps
That's history, folks


Your Time-Line falls about under scrutiny. The hostages you are referencing are not the droids we're looking for, Obi-Wan. As I said earlier, you are conflating two entirely different historical events.

edited for syntax(semtex)
Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste


Last edited by Jubbergun on Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:51 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
So what you're saying is that Obama, for whatever reason, couldn't convince his OWN PARTY on board for something?


...


I would think that the tendency towards representing one's constituents would be preferable to the republican's 'party uber alles' approach. Unless of course you honestly believe that any party has a national platform that perfectly serves every district.


Dvergar /
Quisling
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:41 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Bush was elected because he can be a likeable guy.
The same with Clinton, the same with Obama.

All of those delivered on 1-2 promises and on the rest of their actions about the opposite of all they promised. Not to just single out Obama among this group (he just happens to still be pres), but he did sign on to the Patriot Act just to name the easiest example.

Iranian Revolution was a result of both party's policies (see: CIA reinstating a dictator decades before President Carter), and most of the hatred and negative actions against the USA have been a result of OUR actions decades prior. Maybe if we decide to be a free country again (rid ourselves of the Fed), and actually institute some Jeffersonian "Friends with all, Allies with none" philosophy we can regain some lost ground and wealth.

Just to reiterate my point... W.Bush promised in 2000 No Nation Building, Humble Foreign Policy, Smaller government. He did the opposite.
in 2008 Obama promised open legislation and discussion before signing bills, opposition to the Patriot Act, and ending the occupational policing the world non-declared run-on sentence wars in the middle east.

Major Lulz

Ok i'm done


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:46 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Azelma should contribute an original thought instead of quoting others. :P

Edit: Bush's 2000 campaign promises were before we were attacked, mind you. Shit changes and it changes fast in a time of war.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:49 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Azelma should contribute an original thought instead of quoting others. :P

Edit: Bush's 2000 campaign promises were before we were attacked, mind you. Shit changes and it changes fast in a time of war.


This is Bush's argument^, but shouldn't your principles(especially the ones you were elected for) matter most when questioned by violence and when under attack; is a legit rebuttle.

Edit: Which tells me, either WBush doesn't mind lying- he takes lightly his word, or he did not intend on keeping his word in the first place. The same scenarios for the recent 5 presidents.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:00 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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puppets still have an arm elbow deep up their ass.

just sayin'.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:05 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnal touched on it, but didn't elaborate.


A lof of the time, a president runs for office under X platform.

The problem is, once he gets in as president, he learns that he has to put out Y Z A B C and D fires, and then IF he gets those put out, he has to deal with E F G H and J. It's no small wonder that most presidents don't meet their campaign promises, as they have to deal with the last several decades of shit blowing up.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:39 am  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:56 am  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Battletard wrote:
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dude dont post shit like that, some of us just ate breakfast. brb /puking up my waffles.


9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:59 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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Politicians know a fact about human nature: once something is said or alleged, or a lie is told, there will always be some fools who will believe it no matter how thoroughly it is disproven. So:

Politicians make bad decisions and lie about it
People like Jubber believe the lies even after debunked thinking they're informed and not brainwashed
American political system sucks
Carry on, I'm done with this thread


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:32 am  
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Malodorous Moron
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Usdk wrote:
So what you're saying is that Obama, for whatever reason, couldn't convince his OWN PARTY on board for something?


...


Democrats don't have the echo chamber and following that the republicans have. Republicans can get a more organized PR move and a more organized move in congress than Democrats and HOPE to have.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:43 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Kamguh wrote:
Usdk wrote:
So what you're saying is that Obama, for whatever reason, couldn't convince his OWN PARTY on board for something?


...


Democrats don't have the echo chamber and following that the republicans have. Republicans can get a more organized PR move and a more organized move in congress than Democrats and HOPE to have.


That sounds like a serious problem with the democratic party.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:19 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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At least Kanye regrets saying something, and Bush forgives lol

http://news.yahoo.com/s//yblog_upshot/2 ... -a-racist/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:59 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:05 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Lol'd for lulz. Cried because democrats actually believe that.
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