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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:14 pm  
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Dvergar wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
You can't lead if no one follows, and the flag-pin thing was turn-off for some. While I understood what he was trying to communicate, a lot of people didn't, and what people don't understand, they misunderstand. "I don't want to be like the last guy and drape myself in the flag" came across as, "let's not be overtly attached to this whole America thing, guys, amirite?"


Anyone who would make such a huge leap already had their minds made up about him before this happened anyway. "I don't like that people equate pins with patriotism" to "I don't care about America" is the kind of jump in logic that a moron or a hater would make, and neither are the kind of people you need to pander to.


While I think that you're oversimplifying the importance of the symbolism in question (this isn't just about "a pin," it's about the Flag of the United States of America), even if you don't want to pander to "those people," you have to because they're your voters. They're the same idiots that win you an election now whether it's the right saying, "He'll take your guns," or "he hates America," or "he's an Islamic socialist," or whether it's the left saying, "he'll take your social security," or "he's a racist." These are the exact same morons both sides pander to because they have to pander to them to win elections.


Dvergar wrote:
Jubbergun wrote:
If you don't want to be like the last guy, just don't yell "AMERICA...FUCK YEAH!" in response to every criticism. If you're there to lead, which I would assume means advancing your agenda, you're wasting valuable time and effort putting yourself off-message while giving your political adversaries ammunition that puts you on the defensive when you should be offensive. When you're the President of the United States, there isn't a lot of separation between politics and leadership.


I can't really say what his feelinga about this is beyond a small snippet, but the way the American people view politics is all fucked up. I clearly understood what he was saying and why he was saying it and he's right. It's a fucking pin. If that's the kind of thing that takes you from "undecided" to "McCain" then just don't vote at all.


It's not just "a fucking pin." It's the Flag of the United States of America, which is arguably the most potent symbol of the nation there is. Here's an example of how the flag ties an object/idea/character to the USA:
Image

How do you know it's Cpt. America? He's wearing the flag, that's how. The same for Uncle Sam. Hell, even you say that Obama didn't want to appear like the prior administration because he didn't want "to drape himself in the flag." Why would someone want to "drape themselves in the flag?" They do that because it's an incredibly powerful symbol that provokes a powerful emotional reaction. Obama, if your explanation is to be believed, didn't want people to back him/his policies based on those emotions, but because they came to the intellectual conclusion that those were the best policies to follow. If he was aware of this strong relation between emotional reaction and the flag, why did he provoke it with something so silly as refusing to wear, in your words, "a fucking pin?"

Do you think anyone would have derided him for wearing the pin and accused him of draping himself in the flag? I don't think that's the case at all. He was trying to ride the ol' moral high horse and make a point that didn't need to be made, and it rightfully bit him on the ass. It was a stupid, pointless gesture that did nothing to help him lead, and hurt him politically.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:45 pm  
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Dagery, stop trying to be objective and smart, its not working.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:07 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:

While I think that you're oversimplifying the importance of the symbolism in question (this isn't just about "a pin," it's about the Flag of the United States of America), even if you don't want to pander to "those people," you have to because they're your voters. They're the same idiots that win you an election now whether it's the right saying, "He'll take your guns," or "he hates America," or "he's an Islamic socialist," or whether it's the left saying, "he'll take your social security," or "he's a racist." These are the exact same morons both sides pander to because they have to pander to them to win elections.


It's not about the flag, they were SIX big damn flags right behind him. It is about the pin, because he never once refused to be seen with the flag. This is about a little piece of metal and people who will go to any lengths to produce something to hate him about. There is enough for my-way-or-the-highway obstructionists to dislike in his policies, this is just another example of throwing up a non-issue to cloud talking about something substantive.




Quote:
It's not just "a fucking pin." It's the Flag of the United States of America, which is arguably the most potent symbol of the nation there is.


It's a pin, there are flags behind him. You can go on a rant about the flag if you want to, but it was a pin that he didn't feel like wearing while standing in front of a whole wallpaper of actual flags.



Quote:
Obama, if your explanation is to be believed, didn't want people to back him/his policies based on those emotions, but because they came to the intellectual conclusion that those were the best policies to follow. If he was aware of this strong relation between emotional reaction and the flag, why did he provoke it with something so silly as refusing to wear, in your words, "a fucking pin?"


Probably for the same reason victims don't decide the punishment for perpetrators in our legal system. Just because you have a strong response of strong feelings about something doesn't make it right. Patriotism comes in right behind Religion as the most damaging and logic-evaporating groupthink. We tortured for patriotism, we invade countries for patriotism, we put our own citizens in pens and internment camps, and anyone who stopped to question were labeled 'unpatriotic'. Blind Patriotism is for fools, and if you're so bent out of shape about a damn pin that's exactly what you are.

Quote:
trying to ride the ol' moral high horse


Maybe if you ask real nice he'll put on a fake accent and talk nice and folksy for ya, make ya feel like he's one of yuns.





Quote:
ITT

people want their ideas heard/think they are right and want others to accept it and by all means attempt to force/convince their ideas on to others.


So you came into a political arguement thread and said 'ITT: Arguement'. Jubber and I both know we're not going to get anywhere with our windbagging, but thanks for somehow being less useful than both of us combined.


Dvergar /
Quisling


Last edited by Dvergar on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:10 pm  
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The more you say "the pin isn't a big deal" the more I think "man, why not just wear it if its such a small deal?"


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:59 pm  
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True patriots have the american flag tattooed on the inside of their eyelids so they see nothing but the stars and stripes whenever they close their eyes.

If you don't have these tattoos, you're a socialist Muslim extremist.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:29 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
Dagery, stop trying to be objective and smart, its not working.

ITT

people want their ideas heard/think they are right and want others to accept it and by all means attempt to force/convince their ideas on to others.


I could care less in regard to how people perceive my political beliefs. I'm not trying to force them on anyone, I'm just stating them.

Your logic implies that opposing views based primarily on upbringing and life experience should either agree on everything or keep their opinions to themselves.

Of course, you silly Canuck, you have to consider that American politics have involved into something much different than they were a decade ago. To loosely quote, IIRC, Bill Maher, "The left has gone to the center and the right has gone into an insane asylum." On one side, the political base is made up of average, working-class Americans between the ages of 18 and 45. The other side's target as far as voting goes is the "gullible old white people" demographic that, regardless of what they may have thought in the counterculture '60s, are "afraid for America" in the present day.

In other words, it's dumb people vs. dumber people.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:45 pm  
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=HK&hl=z ... PgV3_1_qlc

You can stop watching after 3:45.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:53 pm  
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Krizen wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=HK&hl=zh-TW&v=2PgV3_1_qlc

You can stop watching after 3:45.


Hahahaha that was pretty great!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:01 pm  
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Azelma wrote:

Hahahaha that was pretty great and true in the context of uneducated black people in Harlem!


fixt


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:07 pm  
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Dagery wrote:
Azelma wrote:

Hahahaha that was pretty great and true in the context of uneducated black people in Harlem!


fixt


To be fair, I bet a lot of the country (yes even the "educated" parts) would have similar issues. Americans are generally idiotic. Have you ever seen Jay Leno walk around and ask people the simplest of questions, which most of them get wrong? When it comes to government, most people don't even understand how the US functions. When it comes to candidates, most people only know a few talking points and random tidbits from the evening news. No wonder they still have the electoral college....the average person is a fucking idiot (no matter what party).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:24 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
Dagery wrote:
Azelma wrote:

Hahahaha that was pretty great and true in the context of uneducated black people in Harlem!


fixt


To be fair, I bet a lot of the country (yes even the "educated" parts) would have similar issues. Americans are generally idiotic. Have you ever seen Jay Leno walk around and ask people the simplest of questions, which most of them get wrong? When it comes to government, most people don't even understand how the US functions. When it comes to candidates, most people only know a few talking points and random tidbits from the evening news. No wonder they still have the electoral college....the average person is a fucking idiot (no matter what party).


Well yeah, it's not like you should place a high degree of trust into the American masses. To an undecided voter, the one thing that will probably change their opinion is the media. Whether or not they get that influence from the liberal media or the conservative media is up to them, but the majority of non-Internet users are relatively uninformed.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:27 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
The more you say "the pin isn't a big deal" the more I think "man, why not just wear it if its such a small deal?"


I think this pretty much sums it up.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:54 pm  
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Dvergar wrote:
Patriotism comes in right behind Religion as the most damaging and logic-evaporating groupthink.


I like you very much right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:08 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Dvergar wrote:
Patriotism comes in right behind Religion as the most damaging and logic-evaporating groupthink.


I like you very much right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 pm  
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Patriotism, as long as people don't treat it like a religion, is perfectly acceptable.

"I love my country" is fine. "If you don't love my country exactly the way I do, then get the fuck out of it." is not fine.


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