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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:56 am  
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Attention Whore
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Healers are garbage so far w/ my q's with a few exceptions, and people are terribad at DPS, tanks are....we'll giant walls of meat and competant for the most part...but yeah healers and DPS are just fucking terrible right now.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:12 am  
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once my dad is no longer in town i'll nerd-it-up s'more so at least people alliance-side don't have to hate everything anymore


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:35 am  
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Spacehunter wrote:
I think Cata has brought it back and amplified it. The result is its hurting healers more than anything, which goes to what Tuhl is saying. The main mechanical change here is making the faceroll heals so horribly expensive. But this i don't view as being a direct "make healing hard" kind of deal. I view it more as a "do this fight properly or your healer will hate you".

This then comes back to the strategy and definitely social aspect. If people cannot do it properly your healer is gonna get ass raped as he will be forced to use inefficient heals. Likewise if people dont want to do it properly you will get the same result.

Take a very very simply example: the first trash pack in Stonecore, even on Regular. This pack is fairly brutal. Those aoe spinny earth guys do a lot of damage, Millhouse has that aoe spam thing, and there's about 5-6 mobs total. Ideally you would CC some of them, nuke millhouse, and focus down a couple of others 1 by 1. Instead tanks charge in, no marking, no cc, DPS aoe, and the healer expends his entire mana bar on a single trash pack when if he'd done it 'properly' i wager at least half the healers, and almost all % of the ones who understand the mana costs of their spells now would end the fight on 90% mana.

WotLK told us we didn't have to do it properly. Cata says we have to. One extreme to the other. Quite neat really.


This sums it up well. I was a shadow priest in the last few months of Wrath, leveled to 85 as shadow, and have since been doing dungeons and heroics as holy to avoid hour long queues. Most of the mana QQ I'm reading (from holy priests at least) is from players who either continue to spam flash heal, prayer of healing, or greater heal while trying to keep the group topped off. I'll admit, for my first Cata dungeon I did the same thing. Then I noticed the insane mana costs for each spell, and how mana costs seem to have increased exponentially for each level since 81. Comparing the growth of mana costs with that of mana pools, it's easy to see why it can be problematic without a playstyle adjustment.

So I started thinking, in Wrath mana wasn't a problem at all. Overhealing didn't matter at all because you could regen faster than you could cast. With this no longer being the case, I started looking at the overhealing meter on recount, and figured every point of overheal is wasted mana. I started focusing on using smaller, more efficient heals, and larger and/or faster heals situationally, and really dove into holy as a spec, and I'm absolutely loving it. I'm at a point now where I can clear heroic trash without drinking while maintaining overheal under 1.5% for the entire dungeon. I've learned how to properly use Chakra with heal to keep renews rolling on tanks, get free instant flash heals, and holy word: serenity for a stupidly efficient instant cast 10k heal. Or for group damage, Chakra with PoM to turn holy word: chastise into a ground effect AoE heal. And oh yeah- lightwell is fuxing amazing now.

So it's not that making faceroll heals expensive makes it hard, it's using the right combination of 12 or 13 spells, knowing which to use at what time, and what to do in "oh shit" moments that makes it "hard" (which to me makes it fun and interesting, not so much hard).

Seriously, healing as a holy priest has so much depth now, I've used virtually every ability more than a few times in each dungeon. Going OOM hasn't been a problem since I figured how how to properly use everything as well, and while some fights drop me to 5% mana by the end, it's still awesome.

My only hope is that Blizzard doesn't cave to the QQ and nerf everything to the ground. It's nice to see people running around in blues and greens again, like the early days of vanilla (except now the greens aren't terrible). And while there are still some welfare epics, they're much more difficult to earn now- you can't AFK through instances for an hour to earn tier. It takes a few days to grind rep, and much longer for valor points.


Iterative Crebains - Retired
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:51 am  
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CentauriFox wrote:
This sums it up well. I was a shadow priest in the last few months of Wrath, leveled to 85 as shadow, and have since been doing dungeons and heroics as holy to avoid hour long queues. Most of the mana QQ I'm reading (from holy priests at least) is from players who either continue to spam flash heal, prayer of healing, or greater heal while trying to keep the group topped off. I'll admit, for my first Cata dungeon I did the same thing. Then I noticed the insane mana costs for each spell, and how mana costs seem to have increased exponentially for each level since 81. Comparing the growth of mana costs with that of mana pools, it's easy to see why it can be problematic without a playstyle adjustment.

So I started thinking, in Wrath mana wasn't a problem at all. Overhealing didn't matter at all because you could regen faster than you could cast. With this no longer being the case, I started looking at the overhealing meter on recount, and figured every point of overheal is wasted mana. I started focusing on using smaller, more efficient heals, and larger and/or faster heals situationally, and really dove into holy as a spec, and I'm absolutely loving it. I'm at a point now where I can clear heroic trash without drinking while maintaining overheal under 1.5% for the entire dungeon. I've learned how to properly use Chakra with heal to keep renews rolling on tanks, get free instant flash heals, and holy word: serenity for a stupidly efficient instant cast 10k heal. Or for group damage, Chakra with PoM to turn holy word: chastise into a ground effect AoE heal. And oh yeah- lightwell is fuxing amazing now.

So it's not that making faceroll heals expensive makes it hard, it's using the right combination of 12 or 13 spells, knowing which to use at what time, and what to do in "oh shit" moments that makes it "hard" (which to me makes it fun and interesting, not so much hard).

Seriously, healing as a holy priest has so much depth now, I've used virtually every ability more than a few times in each dungeon. Going OOM hasn't been a problem since I figured how how to properly use everything as well, and while some fights drop me to 5% mana by the end, it's still awesome.

My only hope is that Blizzard doesn't cave to the QQ and nerf everything to the ground. It's nice to see people running around in blues and greens again, like the early days of vanilla (except now the greens aren't terrible). And while there are still some welfare epics, they're much more difficult to earn now- you can't AFK through instances for an hour to earn tier. It takes a few days to grind rep, and much longer for valor points.



I've been rocking holy as well. I LOVE the whole Chakra thing. It takes skill/thought (will there be AOE damage?....Chakra + POM....single target? Chakra + Heal ).

The mana issues ive had just require me to drink after most large pulls and bosses. I think that's "working as intended" as far as blizz is concerned. I don't run out of mana during fights, but I can't simply walk through an instance and never have to drink like I could in WotlK

On a side note, I healed Vortex Pinnacle for the first time last night. It was kind of a bitch...especially because we had awful DPS. Seriously, one of the DPS was a China farmer who didn't speak a word of english. The huntard in the group had no idea how to trap and didn't realize that he could make it so his pet wasn't on aggressive....hilarious.

It took a while, and 3-4 wipes, but we got through the instance. I got

http://www.wowhead.com/item=63040/reins ... north-wind

for my trouble, so I can't complain too much.


Azelma

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:01 am  
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i have also found that healers are horribly inefficient these days. there have been pulls where i came out of it thinking, "man, no tank has ever used cooldowns as skillfully as i as to avoid damage." meanwhile, the healer is at 2% mana and i now have to wait to drink. as a holy paladin, though, i did my best to generate holy power for the sake of no-mana-cost heals.
i hadn't thought to look at overhealing, though, so i'm probably going to start being a dick about that soon. i mean, i'm a tank, good-fucking-luck booting me and getting another one before i join--and then finish--another dungeon.
i guess it really comes down to people not being able to faceroll and thus not knowing how to competently play their class


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:21 am  
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rikkilake wrote:
i guess it really comes down to people not being able to faceroll and thus not knowing how to competently play their class


This.

In Wrath Blizz kind of let skill just fly out the window.

Healers could spam all day, and everyone could just zerg everything (especially by the end)...I remember heroics in WotlK stopped being challenging a little over a month after the expansion was released.

I really like that I can't just alt tab and keep tanks topped off. That being said, it makes it simply impossible to defeat anything if you have tards in the group.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:07 pm  
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which is why we need to all get together and knock out some heroics


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:04 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
which is why we need to all get together and knock out some heroics


Second this.


P.S. I used Polymorph once.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:16 pm  
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thegodslayer wrote:
P.S. I used Polymorph once.


On an amusing side note, this is how we found out the China farmer was in our group.

We were like "hey whateverhisnamewas, sheep X"

So of course he straight up attacked it.

We wiped, and were like...WTF man?

Then my buddy goes "Do you even speak english"?

No response...

My buddy goes "Mage, Polymorph = X"

then he goes:

"I'm understand."

lol, he figured out what we wanted, it was hilarious.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:47 pm  
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nvm.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:05 pm  
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I think it's 3 parts that ultimately equate to most players not knowing any better.

1. They lack spatial awareness and/or ignore environmental cues.

2. They lack awareness of mechanical cues like what glowing white or green hands usually mean and to a lesser extent the existence of debuffs.

3. They lack an understanding of their full arsenal of abilities and how they can be leveraged. How many mages do you see spellstealing important buffs?

They'll learn.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:56 pm  
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ignayshus wrote:
They'll learn.

you're assuming they have the cognitive capacity to recognize all the variables within the situation, how they affect each other, and then retain all of it


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:50 am  
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shit, most people don't realize polymorph doesn't work on elementals and dragonkin.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:15 am  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
shit, most people don't realize polymorph doesn't work on elementals and dragonkin.


/facepalm


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:57 am  
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Gogo guild heroics. At this point they are pretty easy once again. Of course things still gotta be cc'd and what not but we all have our symbols, tank marks and away we go. Toughest instance imo was Grim Batol at first but now even that is pretty cake after they nerfed the 2nd boss.


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