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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Boredalt wrote:
Let me pose this as food for thought:

Sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, I know!!

I have 4 soldiers. All are open about their sexuality.

1 straight male
1 gay male
1 straight female
1 lesbian female


Why should there be any problems at all resulting from these 4 soldiers sharing quarters and facilities?


Biggest problem I see, is straight male and straight female start hooking up, then things go south...an ugly break up. Things go so bad, the straight female decides to go lesbian (a la Anne Heche), and starts getting with the lesbian female. Then, the straight male gets jealous, and ends up shooting the lesbian female. The gay male's BFF and shopping buddy was the lesbian female, so he gets mad and shoots the straight male.

Then the formerly-straight female decides to go straight again and is driven insane by the jilted love triangle, so she ties up the gay male, force-feeds him viagra, and rapes him.

She then feels guilty and dirty for doing so, so she kills him then kills herself.

Grats, they are all dead now Boredalt. So much for your experiment.


Azelma

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:56 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Boredalt wrote:
Let me pose this as food for thought:

Sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, I know!!

I have 4 soldiers. All are open about their sexuality.

1 straight male
1 gay male
1 straight female
1 lesbian female


Why should there be any problems at all resulting from these 4 soldiers sharing quarters and facilities?


If all were very open about it, then no, hypothetically speaking, there wouldn't be a problem in all of them sharing the same quarters.

The assumes they have no problems with others sharing their sexual orientations or thoughts... AND furthermore assumes none of them have intentions of forming any relationships beyond which remain on the battlefield other than those of friendship.

If the above statement is invalid for the situation, then yes, there is a huge problem.


Last edited by Paddywack on Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:58 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Azelma wrote:
Boredalt wrote:
Let me pose this as food for thought:

Sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, I know!!

I have 4 soldiers. All are open about their sexuality.

1 straight male
1 gay male
1 straight female
1 lesbian female


Why should there be any problems at all resulting from these 4 soldiers sharing quarters and facilities?


Biggest problem I see, is straight male and straight female start hooking up, then things go south...an ugly break up. Things go so bad, the straight female decides to go lesbian (a la Anne Heche), and starts getting with the lesbian female. Then, the straight male gets jealous, and ends up shooting the lesbian female. The gay male's BFF and shopping buddy was the lesbian female, so he gets mad and shoots the straight male.

Then the formerly-straight female decides to go straight again and is driven insane by the jilted love triangle, so she ties up the gay male, force-feeds him viagra, and rapes him.

She then feels guilty and dirty for doing so, so she kills him then kills herself.

Grats, they are all dead now Boredalt. So much for your experiment.


I lol'd.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Boredalt wrote:
dek wrote:
They don't want your junk, they want to serve their country, stop being such a pussy.


I agree with the part about "they don't want your junk", but if they're in it just to serve their country, then why do they have a problem not being openly gay?


Because it's an unreasonable and inhuman stipulation.

Should straight soldiers have to do Don't Ask, Don't Tell? No, that would be unreasonable.

We have priests deny their sexuality and the result is pederasty, because that's just human nature.

The man next to you is gay. Get over it and do your job.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:04 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Solution: Kill all humans.

Problem solved.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:05 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Boredalt wrote:
Let me pose this as food for thought:

Sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, I know!!

I have 4 soldiers. All are open about their sexuality.

1 straight male
1 gay male
1 straight female
1 lesbian female


Why should there be any problems at all resulting from these 4 soldiers sharing quarters and facilities?


There shouldn't be. Most drama is the result of the reaction to it. If people meet as equals, they should conduct themselves as equals. Why would there be a problem?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:08 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Aestu wrote:
Boredalt wrote:
Let me pose this as food for thought:

Sounds like the beginning of a bad joke, I know!!

I have 4 soldiers. All are open about their sexuality.

1 straight male
1 gay male
1 straight female
1 lesbian female


Why should there be any problems at all resulting from these 4 soldiers sharing quarters and facilities?


There shouldn't be. Most drama is the result of the reaction to it. If people meet as equals, they should conduct themselves as equals. Why would there be a problem?


The problem arises when advances are made on another person or feelings about each other are insecure.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:17 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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I'm fine with DA/DT. I'm fine if they get rid of it too (I don't serve anymore so I'm safe from the shower sappers)... unless it seriously hurts retention, recruitment and morale.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:22 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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This is the kind of shit that shouldn't even be discussed during a war.


Soldiers have enough on their plate right now. Finish up afganistan, finish up iraq, and then let the soldiers come home before you start shaking shit up again.

That said, I could give a shit who serves in uniform. If they want to be protected by the constitution, they deserve to be able to defend it. Then again, it is possible for them to serve without prancing around telling everyone in their platoon what team they play for.

I don't understand why they want to go around shouting it out loud though. I mean what is to gain by it? I mean if i go around bragging about being a white male, I might get beat up by a group of minorities. now THERES a double standard.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:37 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Why the fuck would it bother you if someone comes on to you that happens to be gay? I'm not gay, I don't want a penis in my butt, but if a man finds me attractive I'd be flattered way before I'd be insulted. That said, I would then explain to him that I am not gay and don't plan to be. There's a way to deal with these situations, and just because some idiot soldiers can't handle being around gay people we have to discriminate against them? What the hell is wrong with you so-called soldiers? You are not honorably serving when you discriminate, you're just serving. And I have no respect for someone who is just serving.

Perhaps it's due to a lack of education? The problem is discrimination and the morons who participate in it. Instead of DA/DT how about we start talking about a REAL solution? Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:41 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
I don't understand why they want to go around shouting it out loud though.


I'm pretty sure they don't want to brag about it, they just don't want to have to hide it. Just like you and I don't have to hide that we're straight. You have not been discriminated against based on being straight, however, which is why you don't care.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:46 pm  
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Get Off My Lawn!
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Aestu wrote:
Boredalt wrote:
Since someone is going to get trampled on, then you have to side with the 93%.


"Leave No Man Behind" speaks volumes about why this is a fundamentally flawed and non-viable adaptive strategy.

It's flawed for several reasons. First is the implied assumption: that people can't overcome their limitations and get along, so therefore losses must be cut. This assumption is clearly incorrect because it's been done in the past. Other militaries throughout history and in many countries in the present day have gay soldiers and they work fine. They aren't undermined by their gay soldiers. The military has said, "it's a choice between fairness and functionality" regarding black soldiers and many other issues and were proven wrong when civilians forced change on them.

It's also flawed because acquiescing to the preferences of the majority is ultimately self-defeating. Institutions doom themselves to stagnation and decline when they refuse the challenge to adapt and simply stick head in sand. If every calculation is made with the lowest common denominator in mind, that inevitably reduces the range of potential values, which means increasing groupthink and narrowness of appeal. I don't refer (as many do) in this context to the issue of recruitment, but of the long-term wisdom of allowing the military to continue to be dominated by rednecks in uniform with a certain political slant. It bodes ill for the political stability of the country to have a certain mindset give the thumbs-up or thumbs-down on internal policy based on their own biases.

Finally, every functional institution and society has protections for the unpopular minority. Even the military. An institution is most functional when it affords its protection to all its members, not just the tyrannical majority, and that's why "Leave No Man Behind" is not only a humanist vision but a piece of military genius that affords tremendous effectiveness in the real world. Smaller minds might say, leave that man behind, it's only one...but history shows very consistently that espirit de corps is maintained by one for all and all for one. So to say, we should exclude these people, because we're disinclined to protect them, is really just a refusal to make the military a better institution towards its own ends.


I agree with just about everything you typed here, although I could nitpick at applying a battlefield philosophy that binds soldiers in arms to non-battlefield general situations, however, my problem is that I think everyone should be afforded the same considerations. How do you accommodate both sides of this issue without telling one side to "Get over it", and by extension saying, "I care more about how they feel about this than you?"


Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:06 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
This is the kind of shit that shouldn't even be discussed during a war.

Soldiers have enough on their plate right now. Finish up afganistan, finish up iraq, and then let the soldiers come home before you start shaking shit up again.


We're not at war. We're engaged in an occupation of a small and primitive country, not fighting for our land and liberty or for the continued survival of our particular government.

Besides...why not? Show me the guy who got killed because we talked about gays in the military.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:13 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Boredalt wrote:
I agree with just about everything you typed here, although I could nitpick at applying a battlefield philosophy that binds soldiers in arms to non-battlefield general situations, however, my problem is that I think everyone should be afforded the same considerations. How do you accommodate both sides of this issue without telling one side to "Get over it", and by extension saying, "I care more about how they feel about this than you?"


Well, your entire argument is that the realities of military life are why allowing gays to join up isn't wise or appropriate. Those realities exist, or should, for definite reasons. The ultimate outcome, which is professionalism and effectiveness, should be the driving force in all things military, so I don't see why military life should be arbitrarily excluded from that equation. This is also why we have the VA and RnR facilities for soldiers.

To answer your question, it's really very simple. Lassiez-faire. Hold all violators of the rules of professional conduct accountable. Impose discipline and punish those who undermine it by any means.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:32 pm  
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My two cents.

First, I don't give a flying fuck what you do with your reproductive organs, as long as it is consensual. And both parties are of legal age (yes even asian school girls) as defined by the area they live.

As far as gays in the military, go for it. You want to fight for your country, do it to the best of your abilities. Join the military because you feel a sense of patriotism, not to make a flaming statement about your sexuality. I know a fair amount of gay people, some are even in the military or were at some point, and I have no problem with them at all. The problem lies when any person wants special treatment because of where and what they want shoved in their body, or lack there of.

You also have to remember, its not just gay men in the military, in fact some of the biggest offenders are lesbians. My mother was in the Navy for 20 years. 12 years as a corpsman on a base, 4 as a career counselor and 4 as a fire trainer at the fleet training fire center (one of two female trainers in the entrire country at the time). She has said repeatedly that she would always hear comments about how the lesbians on base would openly gauk at women in the showers, make passes at women, even married women, and harass the hell out of younger soldiers. Why did they do this? It was because the superiors looked at is as fine, in fact the male superiors usually would get that look in their eye like they were imagining some lesbian cheerleader orgy (moms words not mine, lol). The women would do things that most men would get beat to within an inch of their life for doing just because they could. As a career counselor she hear these stories almost on a daily basis, mostly from people who were fresh out of boot camp and were trying to avoid close quarters work after such horrible experiences. She heard a few male versions of the stories as a fire trainer mostly because her students were all male.

So, in closing. Dont ask dont tell, I really dont give a fuck. If you want to serve to serve, have at it. Dont do it just to try to make a statement.


9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.
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