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Let's do. And we'll take care of world hunger, population control, and fossil fuel dependency while we're at it.



Speaking of arbitrary. Your blanket is covering people unknown to you, except that those Russian Jews are all alike. Is that it? The group name includes "Jewish". Those invited are Jewish. It's a private party.



Sounds like it is, unfortunately. Too damned bad... for our friend Dek.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Part of the point is he shouldn't have to find other friends. Then it turns into "well, I like my friends, but unfortunately they're also Jews and they're insular so I don't get to do fun things in groups with them." I agree with dek's early comment that ethnic or religious groups can certainly exclude others from language or religious-based activities, but anything beyond that is malicious (intentionally or not) on their part. There's nothing Jewish about hiking and skiing.

I've said this before in other threads, but I never understood the cliquish attitude of certain religious and ethnic groups. I'm actually French, and didn't become American until I was 19. I never speak French in public unless I'm with someone who's really not very good at English, or if the waitress speaks French (well, that's not really public). I turn on subtitles because it doesn't take anything away from me for my friends to understand what the fuck is going on.

It annoys me when second or third generation asians who were born here and go to Taiwan 2 weeks for vacation speak Taiwanese to each other and are only friends with other Taiwanese. It doesn't make me any happier when people consider themselves Italian-Americans when none of them have ever been to Rome or even Palermo and they lost the language 80 fucking years ago. I don't have French friends that I speak to only in French and with whom I go out of my way to be an incomprehensible douche to all Americans in their own goddamn country. I can do that on my own time, and I don't need to hide behind a social group to do it.

Yeah, no. There's nothing good about exclusion for exclusion's sake.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

I'm relatively new in town (only a year here, and the entire first year was focused on trying to make a failing relationship work, I didn't have time for making friends).

Basically, I just started making friends here... oh... 2 months ago.

I found a group of friends that I get along great with. Which is actually quite lucky, because I'm a bit of an introvert (on the internet?!?) and it's simply not in my nature to go looking for friends, I make friends with people who I meet who I click with.

So I meet this group of friends. Yes, Jewish, yes Russian. But Brookline, MA is like little Jewish Russia. It's like saying you should make friends that aren't Chinese when you live in China town... maybe, but the odds are kind of against you.

I'm not trying to force myself into their group, but if someone has to "force" their way into a group that already openly is friends with them, based solely on ethnic background or lack thereof, that's actually incredibly rude of the person doing the exclusion.

That's not quite what is happening with my friends (though there are hints of it from time to time). But it does raise the question.

....

And as if fate were trying to prove my point, the next movie for the Russian film night was posted on Facebook just this afternoon.

It's this classic piece of Soviet cinema...



As they say, Количество Пять жив.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

I certainly understand Dek's point, and I certainly agree that it would be great if they wanted him to come along. In fact, I'll bet a significant number of them would be just fine with it. But, apparently, there aren't enough of them in the group who would be okay with it, and Dek's friends realize that he would not fit in with everyone. Clearly, they are not willing to threaten their group dynamic by making a push for Dek. And, there may be nothing Jewish about hiking or skiing, but evidently there is something Jewish about being Jewish that is a requirement to be invited. It's like a men's or women's club inviting only men or women. The things they do are very likely to be things that those of the other gender could do very nicely. Still. Sorry.



Sounds like you've got a much healthier attitude about this stuff than Dek's friends, but I sure don't see anything wrong with you speaking French to someone else, at any time you choose. And, I still don't see anything wrong with someone having a get-together or creating a group, and inviting who they want to be there. If they have something to offer, it will succeed. If not, it will fail. But Dek isn't going to accomplish anything by trying to force this issue, except to possibly cause his friends to stop discussing these activities when he's around.

tl;dr It's my party and I'll cry if I want to.

EDIT: Didn't see Dek's post before. Two months isn't very long Dek. I think you just need to give it a little more time. Your friends may come around. Who knows? I just don't think you can do anything except wait for an invite. Just my opinion. Also, if you never get an invite, is that a group you want to associate with anyway?

EDIT 2: Have you considered trying to learn some Russian?

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Actually, the debate was more intellectual than personal. It's not so much about me feeling personally excluded, but rather that it could happen and the consequences of it.


As for learning Russian, I dabble in a couple of languages, Russian included.

Ya ni yem slivu.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

Fatalism is a copout.



Irrelevant. They're not celebrating Passover or something. Arbitrary label is arbitrary.



Dek can take a step in the right direction. That is how the world changes and gets better. It has in the past and it will continue to in the future. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

just wanted to quote this because of the quote attribution in it made me lol.

Anyway, something similar to this thread popped into my head today. I think I'll sit back and /popcorn this one, but I do have to say that I agree with Aestu on Madoff.

Actually that's a funny thing to say. I have been to a Passover, she has not. We're both atheists.

I found this out when I made a passing comment about leaving a seat open for Elijah, and she just stared blankly at me. She had no idea what I was talking about.

I also, having studied the Bible generally growing up in a Southern Baptist home, know a lot more about the Torah and ancient Jewish law than she does.

So in a way, I'm more Jewish than she is and would be just as if not more likely to be able to hold a culturally Jewish conversation than she would.

THIS is why the distinction is arbitrary. You can't assume anything about anyone simply by knowing that they are of a certain decent.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

jewish can be either the religion or the bloodline.

The Passover Seder is an extremely interesting ritual that is very unlike anything else. It is unusual in that both its focus and the experience itself is worldly and historical and has relatively little to do with God. This is characteristic and definitive of the modern mainstream Jewish faith.

I often say that anyone who has never been to a Seder should attend one. It's really very interesting.

I am not religious. I am an atheist, but I still find the ritual very...interesting.

The problem with learning the Bible from a Christian point of view is that merely reading the book or listening to Christian religious school doesn't give a sense of the Jewish perspective on the book - what parts they consider important and how they view it in perspective. You may understand the raw material of the book, but you may not necessarily understand the significance as it is understood by most Jews.

None of which is relevant because it's a fking ski trip.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Actually, it's quite relevant.

Ask them if they go camping. If they do, they're not truly Jewish.

But she's never read it in either perspective was my point.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face

The most relevant part is the part where he wasn't invited. If he was not invited simply because he is not Jewish, then that is wrong-thinking, in my opinion. Should someone who is arranging this ski trip be able to invite whoever they want? Yes, they should. Just like anyone else who hosts any event. Who knows why he really wasn't invited? This was a hypothetical.

So, Dek, to answer your question with my opinion: While I believe it is wrong to not invite you to their outings, if you are not invited simply because you are not Jewish, I still support their right to have a group of their very selective choosing. Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

If you believe they are doing this, why would you want to hang out with the assholes, anyway?

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

I think they have every right to segregate themselves, morally wrong or not.


legally you can stuff it.

Who said anything about legally anything? This isn't a question of legality, or of them having or not having the right to do something. It's a question of morality and social mores.

And actually, these groups don't usually operate on the basis of actively disinviting people. It's simply that they set a definition in place of who they will invite and you only invite those people. The people who don't make the list are never actively in their mind, they don't have to think about them. But in the process they a) invite Jewish assholes they don't like (trust me, they complain about them when they get to come) and b) don't invite people they know they would enjoy having along. Simply because they put in place an arbitrary definition of what their group is for that isn't actually based on meaningful criteria.

Socially, it works as much to their detriment as to their benefit because it isn't a very good method of choosing people to hang out with, while it is also alienating their other friends. And it happens without them ever having to make the actual decision to hurt anyone, so they can't understand why it bothers the people they left behind.

"We didn't exclude you, we were just off doing our own thing." Except, in a group of 10 people, it's 9 people "doing their own thing" that are always hanging out, and 1 that is only able to hang out half the time. Why wouldn't that 1 person take issue with this?

It comes to a point where you have to ask, which is more important, that arbitrary racial distinction or an actual, tried and true friendship.

Akina: bitch I will stab you in the face