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I felt the need to put asterisks in there. Funny how nothing can ever be tha tanks fault haha

It can be the tanks fault if the healer dies. Even the best healer can't heal through damage if mobs are raping them. Also, if tanks die, it can be their fault too....if they don't move out of a boss ability that they need to avoid (like in Stonecore...avoiding Orzuks smash thing that 1 shots the tank), or even an avoidable ability that just hits them really hard. If the tank is eating everything, I think it's way unfair to expect healers to heal through that. Damage mitigation/avoidance is one of the pillars of a good tank, in my opinion.

It's interesting you mention this though, because I think there's always this tendency to blame the healer "YOU SHOULDA HEALED ME HERR DERR" that I think is really ridiculous. Tanks should know if they are taking a ton of damage that they will be harder to heal. They should have cooldowns ready for these situations.

Agreed with DPS though, unless it's just random AoE, it's almost always the DPS' fault when they die. Ironically, I think it's a focus on meters (a "I don't care what I do, I'm going to do max DPS no matter what" ) that often causes some DPS to die/blow themselves up/ ignore their surroundings/ be terrible.

Disregard.

I only die to aoe or shit like that because i'm normally watching TV while i play.

I don't trust pugs to do anything they're supposed to so more often not I'm chain casting word of glory with seal of insight on and interupting spells they should be.

This is why I hate fighting the last boss of stonecore and baron ashbury or tanking hoo trash.

this

Honestly little compares to a group with a couple of these players in it, because not only does it keep things interesting, but it gives you a lot of options you wouldnt otherwise have.

I also look to see interrupts and damage taken as easy metrics.

Pugging 5 mans is much different than raiding of course.
I think this thread is directed mostly at 5 mans but it took a turn for more general accusations.

Blood n Thunder + vengence == if warriors are losing to ANY class on aoe trash pulls, they are doing it wrong. I think I was up to about 50k dps on those whelps for halfus.

Recount is pretty meaningless imo. I have it turned off on all my guys. What is better is parsing everything on wol.
I find myself spending hours combing over WoL at my own fight time lines to see where I avoided dmg, to get a sense of buff uptime, see where I can improve, etc. Most of the guys in HS are the same way. Muerte is especially good at analyzing WoL.

One thing though, when you are looking at WoL, dps/hps is just about the last thing we look when trying to compare performance between raid members. Number one stat to examine on there is "Active Time". How many spells are you casting during the fight length? You will notice that generally the guys at the top of the dps meters are those running about 99.9% active time. Same with healers on their end. After that we check out debuffs acquired. If you stand in shit during the fight, wol picks that up and shows you. Very easy to determine who is king of raid mechanics.

@ Aestu : Your comment about the forum tank champions who know EVERYTHING about tanking is quite accurate. I have seen that numerous times. I read just about every warrior blog just to see what the new discussions are and probably once a month I will come across something worthwhile. Personally I have spec'd out of hit/exp and dropped it from my gear. You will notice me at about 9expertise atm. To counter that you will notice several extra threat/dps talents in my secondary spec (which is actually my primary tanking spec). I have had no problems with threat this week after I did wholesale regemming to try something new in the raids. Those people saying "if tanks lose threat they are doing it wrong" are not giving the whole story. How many md/tricks do they have? This is assuming their dps are not idiots and don't nuke the boss instantly? What is their rotation? Do they pre pot? (I pre pot strength every pull for the extra threat burst so the dps can start earlier)

Sorry for the length of the post. Just wanted to chime in. There is a much more lengthy conversation about warrior tanking on the HS threads (which has turned into my own blog recently) if you are interested in further discussion.

Bad tank.




Kidding, I have no idea how you tank.
Our tanks, from what I know (I don't pay attention to anything other than their little HP box honestly, so they could be wearing chicken suits for all I know) don't really go for hit/expertise either. Threat just never is an issue, because for the most part our DPS is very intelligent, and our utility players are very skilled. Salvation and tricks/MD get thrown out when they need to be, so the tank just really doesn't have to worry about the occasional miss/dodge/whatever. This makes stam all the more valuable.
I think a lot of the theorycrafting needs to be taken with a grain of salt; the game is very dynamic and every encounter is different, yes.. so you have to make many assumptions about positioning, mechanics, and "all else equal" sorts of arguments. While fight mechanics may prevent DPS class X from standing still and performing their optimal rotation, the more skilled the player, the closer they can get to that optimal rotation/whatever while still being on the move or dodging raid mechanics or what have you.
I'll readily admit I am not nearly as up to speed on the min/maxing of tanking as I am on healing and also DPS, but I wouldn't be so quick to toss out the majority of theorycraft. Having a comparison like effective stam or whatever can be very useful in many situations... but in some situations (H Anub with an unhittable set, for example), it is important to know when fight mechanics require something different.

Exactly. A lot of stuff is situational.
So the same theory cannot apply to all fights.
For an easy example, comparing massive physical dmg type fights with magic dmg. That means me switching from one elixir to another, just as a small change. Prismatic vs earthen with mastery being my other that I always use. Same goes for food between the 90 parry food and the 90 mastery. How fast is a boss hitting? What is my dr rate? etc.

I am sad to say I do not know who your tanks are. Love chatting with the server tanks about random theory/gear stuff. Artic and I talk once in a while. Snuss and I still talk constantly in game as well as in the prot warrior discussion thread on the hs forums. I forget the name of the TB tank but he stopped by to chat about gear decisions in ICC as well.

I will say that, as far as my opinion and the way I have changed my gearing strategy, I have moved out of full power stam gems. After the change I saw some very good results in WoL when comparing a few weeks of raiding against each other.

Havx, Kerym, Xaphel. Occasionally Vallis has his arm twisted and he tanks.

I dunno who would have been talking to you back in ICC... we had a solid tank lineup of Coco + Havx + Kerym in the later part of ICC.. but then Coco quit the game and we went through Prot Pally roulette (they're all terrible. I hate prot paladins now) until landing with Xaphel.

Being flexible is important, but from a healers perspective, a very high stam build is so nice. Gives me a lot more flex room. Plus, with a tank that isn't stacking avoidance, the damage is predictable.. which is so very very helpful. I hate leaving things up to chance, especially with how hard many of the heroic modes hit. I'd rather see predictable, even damage on a high stam tank than a whole lot of nothing, followed by "SUPRISE RNG MITIGATE NOTHING SMASHED".
In addition, a lot of the most dangerous bosses are the ones who have massive spell nukes.. in which case only stam really helps as far as gearing choices, though theres the one meta, which we havx discussed using yesterday for H Maloriak.

Consistency is why mastery is better than both avoidance and stamina.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

It was not one of those names. It was a warrior though.

Ok I just went back to the old think tank thread and it was a guy named "Matick". It was right when TB transferred to BH. He may have moved on since then.

I do not necessarily mean to turn this into a tank discussion thread but just briefly. I do not stack avoidance. I would never back that decision. RNg is RNG. I would also not stack stam as I think that endless health pools are not the most efficient now a days. Filling up a tanks full health bar is demanding on healers so seeing a 200k health pool taking 50-60k chunks out every second can be draining mana wise. I am a proponent of mastery stack + block + crit block. I created a theoretical timeline of how long I can go with cd chaining and crit block dmg reduction (60%) in the think tank thread on the HS forums if you are interested in reading further ( I wont bore everyone here as well) but the conclusion was that I can run cds chained along with some self healing stuff and get 2 minutes and 20 seconds of dmg reduction in a 3 minute and 10 second fight (dont ask why that length, it was arbitrary). Even in the 50 seconds of down time without cooldown (which is not together but rather broken into 10 second intervals) I am blocking at 30% dmg reduction and with the coordination of healer cds, I can go an entire fight at massively reduced incoming dmg.

Ok too much nerd tank stuff.
Stop by the forums if you want to get more in detail.
I usually parse out several points from WoL every week and discuss them

Yes, mastery is very very good. Again, not as up to speed on tank mechanics, but I know that they all get boners over their mastery numbers.

You just want me to register for your forums. I see your grand scheme.

I'll be honest, not totally sure what they all do. Matick was our old tank. We had a bit of a falling out mid ICC and he is no longer with us.
I'll make another admission... I think tanking is boring. All I care about is that you dont get your shit smashed and we're on good terms. However you do that is up to you, so the odds of me dropping by your forums to talk about how you block 4.23% more damage than the average meatshield is slim to none.

However, if you want me to yell at your druids, I'm game to do that.

HAHAHA.
And no absolutely not a push to sign up for the hs forums.
Just stating that since I already typed up a far too lengthy tank discussion/thread/diary over there, I will not bore everyone here as it tends to get...repetitive.

Question : When you yell at druids, does it fix internet connections? If so, please register right now. HAHA

Also, sorry to hear about Matick. Didn't really know him at all but he did have add some good points to the discussion a while back. I shall now be not-so-secretly checking out your guild tanks on armory.

Unfortunately not, because I blue bar DC like a champ nowadays.. for some strange reason. Our brand new boomkin has terrible DC issues though.. but he's a traitor to all druids, being a laser chicken and all.. so who cares.