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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:48 am  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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Jubbergun wrote:
I think some of you have this repulsed reaction because the idea of guns, because you have no interaction with them, is the same as you'd have if someone suggested you sleep with a bed full of poisonous adders.

Your Pal,
Jubber


Absolutely true. I agree completely.

However, my statement was that owning a gun for the sake of home protection is a silly argument for owning a gun. I know people in the area that own several guns and are avid hunters. They do not say they own guns to protect themselves if someone breaks in. I actually do not know anyone personally that owns a hand gun for home protection. Absolutely it is a cultural difference and I am fine to leave it at that.

I just can't get behind the argument that having a gun under your pillow (any place you want to store one) is for some reason MORE safe for your family than if didn't own one. What if the robber was armed and wouldn't have used his weapon if you didn't jump out with one yourself? Instead he decides to shoot you or take your family as a body shield? What if he was just there to grab what he could and take off without violence? Sure that may be unlikely as he is there with a weapon in the first place...but if it is likely enough that you get robbed and justify owning/using a handgun...then this argument makes sense.

Also, I just did a quick google search online and I can get a kevlar vest for 300 bucks. It arrives at my house tomorrow afternoon if I want. Would you consider that expensive?

I do respect the right to own a gun and I definitely appreciate children in that environment being taught the responisibility of guns being in the house. Though you cannot argue with the math that a household accident with guns in which a family member is injured is MUCH more likely than someone breaking into your house and being warded off by a handgun without any violence or bloodshed. Since that is the argument for owning one.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:50 am  
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Obama Zombie
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To supplement Jubber's post, grab yer guns... Obamer sed sos!

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/1 ... ing-a-gun/
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:54 am  
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Obama Zombie
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@ Henq - I own guns for two reasons. 1) Protection. 2) They're fun to shoot. I enjoy going to the range and tweaking my sights and seeing how quickly I can get a good group with rapid fire. I don't hunt, though.

Also, the sound of a pump-action shotgun in the dark is a far more threatening sound and, according to the police I've spoken to about home invasions, the pump-action sound does a far greater job of warding off an invader than anything else. ;) Not always a handgun, is my point.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:56 am  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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Eturnalshift wrote:
@ Henq - I own guns for two reasons. 1) Protection. 2) They're fun to shoot. I enjoy going to the range and tweaking my sights and seeing how quickly I can get a good group with rapid fire. I don't hunt, though.

Also, the sound of a pump-action shotgun in the dark is a far more threatening sound and, according to the police I've spoken to about home invasions, the pump-action sound does a far greater job of warding off an invader than anything else. ;) Not always a handgun, is my point.


Question, could I tape that sound and just play recorded gun "cocking" sounds over my home theater system? Thus eliminating the need for a handgun?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:02 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I think the guy has more in line with that batshit VT shooter than with any rational hitman or anything of that nature.

As easy as it is to get guns illegally, i hadn't expected gun control to be part of this conversation though i suppose i should have.

If i were y'all i'd ignore the gun control aspect of this, because if you can get within point blank range, you can just as easily slit a throat with a kitchen knife. I've cut up a deer before, its not hard.

Whack Jobs are on both sides of the aisle, we've discussed this. If you automatically had one or the other come to mind when you heard this, you're biggoted.

My point is if you adjust your behavior to appease the boogeymen, then they win. Rhetoric could be more responsible sure, but its mostly the fox news/msnbc anchors rather than the actual politicians that are the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:03 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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A 30s loop of a gun cocking or chambering a round is going to be seen through - you can only chamber so many rounds. :P
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:04 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Eturnalshift wrote:
To supplement Jubber's post, grab yer guns... Obamer sed sos!

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/1 ... ing-a-gun/


/facepalm

This is exactly what I'm saying we shouldn't be doing. This asshole didn't shoot that woman or that poor little girl or any of the other victims because of something Obama said...or something Sarah Palin said...or because of the tea party or moveon.org or Glen Beck or Michael Moore or Santa Claus.

He did it because he was fucked in the head.

The only reason anyone is making this about politics is because it represents and easy opportunity to tell the other guy's shit like this is their fault and they need to shut up. Not only is that piss poor reasoning and completely fucking juvenile, it is completely contrary to the values that are supposed to guide us. What Palin/Obama says may make them a dumb-ass dipshit immoral unethical retard fuckfaces...but I think we're all mature enough and smart enough to realize that when Obama gives his 'go to the mattresses' speech or Palin puts neon cross-hairs on congressional districts she's targeting for a win that they are not speaking literally. No one was sending signals that this should be done or should be considered acceptable behavior.

I think you all know that, and I'm disappointed that any of you fell in line with this kind of cheap stupid bullshit.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:13 pm  
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Feckless Fool
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Jubbergun wrote:

This is exactly what I'm saying we shouldn't be doing. This asshole didn't shoot that woman or that poor little girl or any of the other victims because of something Obama said...or something Sarah Palin said...or because of the tea party or moveon.org or Glen Beck or Michael Moore or Santa Claus.

He did it because he was fucked in the head.

The only reason anyone is making this about politics is because it represents and easy opportunity to tell the other guy's shit like this is their fault and they need to shut up. Not only is that piss poor reasoning and completely fucking juvenile, it is completely contrary to the values that are supposed to guide us. What Palin/Obama says may make them a dumb-ass dipshit immoral unethical retard fuckfaces...but I think we're all mature enough and smart enough to realize that when Obama gives his 'go to the mattresses' speech or Palin puts neon cross-hairs on congressional districts she's targeting for a win that they are not speaking literally. No one was sending signals that this should be done or should be considered acceptable behavior.

I think you all know that, and I'm disappointed that any of you fell in line with this kind of cheap stupid bullshit.

Your Pal,
Jubber


don't point out the complete obvious. the best you're going to get in response is something along these lines.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:16 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Thanks, Grimm, I think that is exactly the response we all needed...

...WITH A CACTUS.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:24 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I find guns "revolting" because an obsession with the means of violence is base and depraved. Weapons have no place in civil society; civilized societies are not organized around the principle of armed peace or the balance of terror, they are built on security, order, and rule of law. In a civil society, individuals do not hold power of life and death over each other, they don't rely on fear to get along.

This doesn't mean you pull out the soap box and try to negotiate with an intruder. It means that you accept the limitations of personal violence as a problem solver. Gun ownership is a poor gurantor of security.

This is also why weapon ownership in countries like Canada or Switzerland is not problematic - the culture is different, they don't own them for personal defense.

What I see in biometric systems is, yes, a mechanical or software failure could lead to an unresolvable lockout, but also, the system is based on what is ultimately an input peripheral. What if someone creates a dummy peripheral loaded with mined data and hooks it up? In that sense, I don't see the advantage over any other sort of physical or electronic key that can be forged.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:32 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01 ... ne-message

Probably relevant.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:32 pm  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Jubbergun wrote:
It is when the implication is that "the rhetoric," and by extension those that hold the views supported by "the rhetoric," is more responsible for this tragedy than the whack-job that pulled the trigger. If you go look at Nutter-Butter's youtube posting (if they haven't pulled it yet), he doesn't say anything you could even remotely link to the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, elections, the 2nd amendment, or health care. It was an insane disjointed manifesto about mind control and creating a new currency.

This is a good point. However, at the same time you can't blatantly ignore that years of incendiary hyperbole and panic couldn't be related to someone going bonkers. I feel like the county sherrif put it best.
Sheriff Clarence Dupnik wrote:
"I think we're the tombstone of the United States of America," Dupnik said of The Grand Canyon State, which a day earlier he called the “Mecca” of hatred and bigotry. "To try to inflame the public on a daily basis 24 hours a day, seven days a week has impact on people, especially who are unbalanced personalities to begin with."


Quote:
your response is disbelief and calls for a link

I already said that the left isn't innocent of the same type of rhetoric, but I don't think it has ever gotten to the point that its currently at. If you've noticed, pretty much everything I've said so far, especially about Palin trying to scare the shit out of people, has been cited. I agree with Obama on a lot of stuff, so of course I'm going to ask for a link on something that I don't think that he'd say (I'm still waiting for that link, by the way).

Not to mention the point that if my side of the aisle does it, it doesn't make yours any less wrong, it just makes everyone wrong.
Quote:
What if, and it's a big pointless if by the reasoning of my previous post, it does turn out he was motivated by a website with crosshairs...but it turns out to be one put out by a group like moveon.org? Are we still going to hear a bunch of squealing about "the tone" or the "the rhetoric," if it turns out to be 'your guys,' or are we going hear how fucking retarded people are that they don't understand metaphor and go on a shooting spree?

There really isn't a metaphor for putting crosshairs on political districts. If this was indeed caused by some sort of bonkers left-wing website, you'd sure as shit get the same call for people to clam the hell down.

Allow me to ask you the same question: What would people on your side of the aisle if someone killed Bush for justice over war crimes or something and there was a site that was as controversial as the one that Palin put up, calling for the death of Bush?

Quote:
Again, this is pointless, because this is just some nut who was completely out of touch with reality

This is true. However, if he was crazy enough to take everything that people like Beck spew out as literal fact and as events that are occurring right now, he could see himself as protecting the country he loves against facism.


RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:32 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
What if someone creates a dummy peripheral loaded with mined data and hooks it up?

How? We're talking about a safe, aren't we?

Quote:
Allow me to ask you the same question: What would people on your side of the aisle if someone killed Bush for justice over war crimes or something and there was a site that was as controversial as the one that Palin put up, calling for the death of Bush?

No one called for anyones death on the website. That's the difference.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:38 pm  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Jubbergun wrote:
I think we're all mature enough and smart enough to realize that when Obama gives his 'go to the mattresses' speech or Palin puts neon cross-hairs on congressional districts she's targeting for a win that they are not speaking literally.No one was sending signals that this should be done or should be considered acceptable behavior.

Yeah, but some people aren't, and that's the problem.

EDIT:
Quote:
No one called for anyones death on the website. That's the difference.

Ok, fine. Then change it to someone making a site about war crimes and then they put a crosshair over DC. Care arguing the past couple posts I've directed at you or are you going to split hairs with this hypothetical and since you caught me with my pants down, count this as a win?


RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:00 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Aestu wrote:
I find guns "revolting" because an obsession with the means of violence is base and depraved. Weapons have no place in civil society; civilized societies are not organized around the principle of armed peace or the balance of terror, they are built on security, order, and rule of law. In a civil society, individuals do not hold power of life and death over each other, they don't rely on fear to get along.


The vast majority of people in this country were all armed, once-upon-a-time. In fact...

George Washington: "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

...but it's not just famous generals that see/saw the practicality of arms in society, consider that even statesmen of other stripes agree...
Mahatma Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

...I could go on and on and on, but I'll Godwin instead: Consider that in 1938, Germany established gun control...and consider what followed after. Gun control also preceded the Armenian genocide in Turkey and the Stalinist crack-downs in the Soviet Union. Perhaps I'm missing something since I use Google, or drive a forklift, or haven't finished college, but I'm of the opinion that colonial America was infinitely more civil than any of those three societies, and it was a culture that openly embraced weapons to the degree that the Father of the Country places them with "all things good (I have Baileys)."

Aestu wrote:
This doesn't mean you pull out the soap box and try to negotiate with an intruder. It means that you accept the limitations of personal violence as a problem solver. Gun ownership is a poor gurantor of security.


Published and peer-reviewed date indicates otherwise:
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

In fact, not only are handguns useful in self-defense, according to the collected data, the majority of them did not need to be fired in the course of the act of defense. Merely displaying the weapon was enough to discourage an attacker.

http://www.leg.state.co.us/CLICS/CLICS2 ... ttachB.pdf

Take note of paragraph five in the .pdf

Aestu wrote:
This is also why weapon ownership in countries like Canada or Switzerland is not problematic - the culture is different, they don't own them for personal defense.


Since I'm looking forward to an avalanche of "Nice google/wiki," let's keep rolling with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland

Wikipedia wrote:
The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personal weapons, at home. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. They usually receive initial training orders at the age of 18 for military conscription. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable.[3] Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks.


Aestu wrote:
What I see in biometric systems is, yes, a mechanical or software failure could lead to an unresolvable lockout, but also, the system is based on what is ultimately an input peripheral. What if someone creates a dummy peripheral loaded with mined data and hooks it up? In that sense, I don't see the advantage over any other sort of physical or electronic key that can be forged.


Not sure how you'd creating a "dummy peripheral" would help you crack the safe when said peripheral is built directly and securely into said safe (you'd have to drill to access it). James Bond isn't likely to bust into Eternal's house and crack his safe with his Secret Squirrel password decoder box. If anyone is coming into your house with anything like you're suggesting, they're a wee bit further up the food chain than common criminals and you have bigger problems than someone stealing your silverware.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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