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The fact you actually believe this demonstrates exactly what is wrong with you.

Ironically, I agree with Iggy's point of view completely.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Hi I'm aestu and youre wrong cuz youre a woman

He cut ties with long time friends, because he thought they were stalking him.

He got kicked out of school and was not allowed back on campus pending a psych eval that certified that he was not a danger to himself or others.

Obviously there were noticeable signs that he was having problems and while it's a harsh thing to say and hindsight is 20/20, they really should have taken him to find help. That's not to say it would have precluded the killings, but mental instability isn't something you just ignore.

Psychologists don't "help", they just write non-offensive verbiage on pieces of paper and fill the void left by witch doctors and clergy.

From a parents' point of view, if you are taking your kid to a shrink you've already failed. Parents take their kids to shrinks ultimately as a means of transferring blame from themselves to external variables they conveniently can't control. If they weren't blaming chemical imbalances or inborn predispositions they'd be blaming malevolent spirits or miasmas.

If his parents didn't suck at parenting, they wouldn't find themselves in this position.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

@aestu
Believe what you want, but some people are truly mentally unstable (not just antisocial) and that's just a genetic luck of the draw. Physical trauma (like a car accident or boxing) can also bring on the onset of serious mental problems.

I'd agree that psychologists aren't much use to anyone beyond acting as an overpriced sounding board, unless the person is interested in talking through some past issues; but psychiatrists use medication to mitigate the symptoms of medical mental disorders and therapy to attempt to cure the cause.

The two disciplines are not interchangeable.

edit: As to his parents failing him... the problem is the onset of most true mental illness occurs between the ages of 14 and 24. From all accounts he was a happy kid for most of his life and then he started to have problems in his late teens, broke off most all social ties by the time he was 20, gets kicked out of school for posing a threat to himself and others and a year later goes on a shooting rampage.

I doubt that was because they didn't discipline him or hug him enough.

Psychologists, maybe - it depends on what the patient is looking for. But psychiatrists are Medical Doctors. They practice medicine. Dismissing a field of medicine because of your ignorance of it does not make it void.

I.e. you can't dismiss a disorder because you don't believe in it or don't have the knowledge to understand it. I'll use ADHD in this example because it's both "controversial" (which is absurd), and it's a prime example of a chemical imbalance. The brain of an ADHD patient has lower dopamine activity than the normal brain. It's cause stems from either, or a combination of, genetical and environmental factors. Some are born with a brain that simply has lower dopamine activity, and some develop the symptoms due to diet, social or physical factors.

Over-diagnosed? Maybe. Even if it is, it doesn't make it an imaginary disease. It's estimated to affect 5% of children worldwide, with 30-50% of them not being as affected in adulthood -- not as a result of "growing" out of it, but from developing coping mechanism to compensate. The same way that a colorblind person adapts to his deficiency. It is not curable, but it's treatable.

P.S. I'm one of those, soon to be an (AD)PhD.

Most ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Indeed. There are judges and doctors and other pillars of the community who, despite doing "all the right things" have children who grow up to be dirtbags, and dirtbags who have children who despite the idiocy of their parents and abuse and neglect grow up to become doctors and lawyers.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Then they are doing something wrong.

Having a successful professional life does not mean one is successful as a parent, and being a good parent is more than being financially or emotionally supportive. If your kid is a twerp or a psycho it's certainly possible the problem is organic but the odds are strongly against it. If your kid is not functioning properly there is a reason why and it's almost certainly something the parents are doing or not doing.

The issues affecting this kid - lack of social support, weak character, anger, lack of sense of purpose - should have been addressed by proper parenting long before they spiraled into psychosis. If they do not understand their son or what his state of mind is, it is because they are failing at parenting. They would do well to blame themselves and try harder rather than pass it on to shrinks and throw up their hands and say there was nothing they could do.

Again, the proof is in the pudding, some communities / individuals get far better results in raising kids than others. Take the same people and raise them in different settings and see the results. Look at the world at large, how dramatic the differences in outcomes with parenting are. Again, other societies just don't have problems with kids going nuts or needing meds. Parenting makes all the difference.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Ok, great, they're MDs that don't have the courage or skill to practice real medicine, so they choose to work in a field that requires nothing more than dressing up in silly costumes - professional-looking clothing - talk a lot of psychobabble and prescribe meds. As opposed to a field of medicine with definable scientific principles and real consequences for making right or wrong decisions rather than being able to rationalize whatever outcome transpires.

Not so long ago these "experts" prescribed lobotomy and EST. The same idiots who think these guys know all because they have a degree are the same idiots who thought they knew all when they were slicing people's brains out because they didn't have any better ideas how to solve human problems. And it's the same people, the same institutions, the same arrogant pseudoscience at work.

The proof is, as always, in the pudding. Psychologists are very good at slurping up hundreds of thousands of bucks a year in fees, but they don't have a silver bullet to fix people's ailments any more than people who do what they claim to do, mentors, salesmen, counselors, elders - people who really know people. Meanwhile MDs who actually do real medicine are out there prescribing antibiotics and doing corrective surgery.



You could say the same thing about miasma theory or phrenology. I know they're pseudosciences because anyone with a brain can identify reality empirically.

The brain is a chemical organ. Everything it does is chemical. Correlation does not prove causation. ADHD is a lie made up to placate shitty parents. Proof being, whack the kid with a ruler, or give him parents and teachers that don't suck, and watch him learn to read. We didn't have these problems 50 or 100 or 1000 or 2000 years ago, and there's a reason why.



So in other words, you're pleading your own case. In reality you only prove the vacuity of this supposed qualification.

You can get a doctorate in a lot of liberal fields with no real rigor or substance. Social science, humanities, philosophy, whatever - doesn't prove you have two neurons to rub together. What utility do these people have? What skills, what wisdom, that the lay educated do not?

Believe me, if a doctorate was hard proof someone knows what they're doing or that the associated field is legitimate, the world would be far better off than it is. Big decision-makers in our society with doctorates make moronic decisions that lay people can see clearly are foolish all the time - go look at economic or business management, for example.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

1) A child, adolescent or adult is influenced (and motivated) by much more than his parents. In fact, the ability to think and reason enables us to influence (and motivate) ourselves! There is no carbon copy of two people, a child doesn't become an image of his parents, yadda yadda.

2) No amount of parenting will make up for a lack of medical treatment where needed. In fact, trying to be a "good parent" instead of seeking medical attention would have a serious detrimental effect. The only thing your argument says is that a parent sees his child differently than other people do.

I thus invite you to shut the hell up.

Aestu is just trying to find another opportunity to say his parents are horrible. The proof is in the pudding, isn't that right, Aestu?

I officially declare you a giant, ignoramus moron.

I didn't suck in school, and I do even better today with stimulant medications. The disorder just made it more difficult than it should have been. Scored top 5 in my classes for my Master's and got hired to do research. I get to skip one year of the M.Sc and the thesis, straight to the Ph.D programme.

I had good, supportive parents, physical activity regularly since I'm a kid, good diet, etc.

I am also very ADHD. I just fucking deal with it. I'm also not the only example, one of 350 million as a fact, but I'm a good one.

Edit:



Yes we did, you fucking moron. It's true that it was defined less than a century ago, but it's always been around. Bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia weren't always defined either, and they've always been around. Cancer wasn't always defined either, and it's always been around.

Just because you are a fucking ignorant does not make a field of modern medicine a scam.

Do you need a Ph.D to figure this out, Freud? Or is this just common sense (read: that which we know to be true but cannot prove through rhetoric)?

Children aren't the images of their parents, but they aren't the product of genetic and environmental RNG. The fact that psychobabble inevitably descends into internal contradictions and sematics is proof that it is a pseudoscience.

Legitimate science predicts events, makes them controllable. Now, with kids, they aren't the copies of their parents, but the outcome, who they are - like everything else in this world, there is a reason why it is so. This is where common sense comes in, divining why people do what they do based on wisdom and observation.



This is another classically theocratic argument - the claim that anyone who doesn't adopt or agree with your viewpoint and give you money and regard is doomed to damnation.

Like all such arguments, it's specious. I'm not going to hell if I don't attend Church, and the world got by fine without shrinks and will continue to into the future in regions where the pseudoscience hasn't caught on.



This is really the proof that your entire view is bullshit. I see pedantic psychobabble littered with exclamation points all the time. Like I said, these people are the modern-day descendants of witch doctors and clergy, and as such they adopt the same methodology, which is trying to sound pedantic or authoritative or morally correct when really they're just parroting propaganda in favor of their self-serving view of reality and why they deserve money and social prestige, which is all these people - just like the clergy and witch doctors of yesteryear - really care about.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Holy shit, you just dig yourself deeper don't you?



BEING A PARENT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A FUCKING HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. It's a policy that doctors should not diagnose their family members (emergency medicine excluded, of course). Doctors cannot diagnose themselves properly. It requires an external, neutral, non-biased person to perform a correct diagnosis.