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Again, many who committed what we today would consider to be malpractice or folly did pretty well in academic environments.

You could have achieved the same results through self-discipline, being disciplined by others, or simply desperation from having your back to the wall. The obvious fact that taking drugs affects your psychology doesn't make your self-serving interpretation of your weakness of character any more valid than the pothead who can't get out of bed because he has some unspecified illness.



Then ask yourself why. Perhaps life doesn't challenge you enough? Perhaps you are of weak character? Those issues can be confronted and overcome without resorting to chems or excuses.

I don't speak Greek or Latin very well, but I know that if I attended a Catholic school where I got my ass beat for not working as hard as I could, I'd learn the language, just like everyone else who goes through those meat grinder institutions. That doesn't mean I have a psychopathology because I don't have the self-discipline to push myself, just as you don't; I just know myself well, and choose not to hide behind psychobabble.



Your observation about cancer is wrong on two levels - it's always been known as a disease, but it used to be a lot less common.

Psychologists like to make this specious argument, "these things were always around". It's baseless. If you press them on the topic they react just like our friend here, which is they get all angry and self-righteous, and spew phrases like calling the layman an "ignoramous" or saying those case studies "got swept under the rug", which is really just a shill for circular logic - "we know they existed because we know them to exist".

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

wow aestu, show me on the doll where the bad shrink touched you.

Again, it's a theocratic argument - we need YOU to provide us with a conduit between ourselves and the Higher Power. It's specious because the reality is people got by and continue to get by without it all the time, and psychologists don't meet with measurably better outcomes than people who understand people like mentors and counselors and salesmen.

If this argument were true society would be much more stable and generally content than it is. The fact that our society is provably one of the least happy and least stable and sane in history is testament to its invalidity.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Meh, you can't argue with idiocy. Live with your ignorance if you want.

But just a suggestion: educate yourself before opening your mouth on a topic.

And for fuck's sake, I was talking about psychiatry, not psychology.

you must be new to aestu.

Perhaps you are talking to an ex-military veteran turned civilian on his way to a Ph.D in Astrophysics?

Actually Aestu, we've had these problems throughout all of human history, what we did was lock these people away in orphanages, asylums or prisons to protect the public at large.

Today we can help some of these individuals function in normal society.

You're looking for an easy answer, and there isn't one. Some people are just messed up and it doesn't present itself until the first round of chemical changes in the brain around puberty.

These people need help from doctors like psychiatrists and neurologists. For a person who prides himself on taking rational positions, you're being surprisingly illogical.

Exactly, but replace "some of these individuals" with "most", and it's even more accurate.

Even a person with severe schizophrenia can live a normal life today.



Alot of mentally ill people live their entire lives undiagnosed, and "get by". Fortunately, we now have modern medicine to make our lives better than "getting by".

Are you saying that you are against that?

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

The military is all about getting lemmings to march in lines. It is all about taking feeble and weak people and making them kill. That is why it works. It is based on authoritarianism - it is ultimately the product of human weakness, for people who can't think and act for themselves.

I mean, think about it - do you have to be special to be in the military? Are soldiers morally superior? One word: Conscription. That killed the Old Lie hard.

There's a ton of people who gravitate towards military life because it is the best place for the weak. You need make no difficult decisions, you need not wrangle with difficult questions such as your purpose or value, or with the myriad complications of day-to-day life. They have the comfort of a highly structured, de-personalized environment that lets them cop out of those life challenges. And you take these people out of the military and they're homeless on the street.

Astrophysics...you make wild claims about phenomena thousands of light-years away, and unlike physicists, you don't have to create tangible and useful applications like electronics or materials engineering.

I mean, you're corroborating my claim that your worldview and self-image is based on an inordinate need for prestige and moral superiority.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

But isn't what we do today? Stigmatize them and afford them a place in society based on arbitrary restrictions and dogma? How is that different or better than sticking them in a convent or dismissing them as the weird guy?

How do you really know those people didn't become part of society in ages past - or that they even existed? Evidence to the contrary is strong. How many individuals today are on meds, in mental hospitals, have a history of mental instability? What was the enrollment of insane asylums a hundred years ago? Five hundred? A thousand? Per capita, it was way lower. Myth debunked.

You can take a field trip and visit other societies and see their incidence of what we call schizophrenia is far lower, especially in pre-industrial society. So the argument that psychology is a necessary element of society in response to inevitable and inescapable problems is flatly a lie.

Again the psychology argument descends into the theocratic - it is an argument in favor of a particular value system, that just like every other, bases its rectitude on the implied assumption that its values are correct and superior.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I always like it when people start posting here. The time from their first post to the point that they realize Aestu is largely ignorant about the social issues he discusses (but no less absolutely certain) is always an entertaining time.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Impressive, I haven't witnessed an idiot of your caliber in a while.

You're 100% right saying that the military is authoritative, however that's because it wouldn't function if every members had an opinion of how things should be run.

The military builds character. Physical and mental endurance. A weak willed person who wishes to join the military wouldn't get past basic training.





I'd explain to you what it is exactly that we do, but you wouldn't care -- you're too comfortable in your little world of ignorance.

I also take issue with this.

Which is more plausable?
a) That Americans on the whole are just so much worse at parenting that we have a 4x higher rate of mental illness than the rest of the world.

or is it more likely that

b) Or are we in the US are just more comfortable discussing these problems and spend more resources on identifying and tracking these disorders?

If you're thinking a) consider this:
In the recent WHO study on mental illness, Japan reported a rate of 5.3% for anxiety disorders yet the Japanese consume the most benzodiazepines per person in the world...

Do you not see the fallacy in your reasoning?

Again you assume that because we didn't keep accurate or reliable records on mental illness in the past or that other countries still do not do it today that it must not exist or have existed.

That's poor logic.

I vote we change the title to Psychiatry is a Sham, because that's what we're debating.

Nobody is debating the value of Psychology except for maybe Aestu, but I think that was because he misread or miscomprehended what Cally wrote.