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 Post subject: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:30 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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no h8, just observing


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:39 pm  
Malodorous Moron
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Ben Stein is an atheist?

edit: point of view of someone who was never indoctrinated -- the concept of an eternal all-powerful benevolent creator who is concerned with our well being and our after-life is as ridiculous as Santa Claus to us.
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:17 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Joklem wrote:
edit: point of view of someone who was never indoctrinated -- the concept of an eternal all-powerful benevolent creator who is concerned with our well being and our after-life is as ridiculous as Santa Claus to us.



Perhaps it is ridiculous to hold that concept of God. But what about the concept of an all-powerful creator who just made everything (the direct "cause" of the Big Bang) and had no other motives other than to create the universe and tip the first domino that has lead to the existence of life?

To me, atheism is just as bad as religious fundamentalism. In both cases, you are being extreme, cutting out any possibility that other truths could exist. Atheism is simply a different manifestation of the same arrogance that fundamentalists use to condemn people to hell.

Both sides use the argument from ignorance, which is why I think I'm agnostic, but I'd like to believe in God (if for no other reason, it would give life more meaning for me):

Quote:
Arguments from ignorance can easily find their way into debates over the Existence of God. This, both from the theistic side (e.g. "You don't have evidence that my God doesn't exist, so regardless of my evidence - he exists!") and from the atheistic side (e.g. "You don't have evidence that your God exists, therefore he doesn't exist, regardless of whether I actually possess Evidence of absence"). Again, it is important to note that it is a fallacy to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, since this does not satisfactorily address issues of philosophic burden of proof. In other words, a complete lack of evidence either way results in agnosticism, thus each side must prove that they have satisfied their own burden for providing proof (evidence).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:23 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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That Azelma, is more or less why I can't rationally be anything but agnostic.

It is very much like me to be a fence sitter though.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:28 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Azelma wrote:
Perhaps it is ridiculous to hold that concept of God. But what about the concept of an all-powerful creator who just made everything (the direct "cause" of the Big Bang) and had no other motives other than to create the universe and tip the first domino that has lead to the existence of life?


Does anyone actually believe in that kind of god? What would be the point in believing in a god that is indistinguishable from no god?

Quote:
To me, atheism is just as bad as religious fundamentalism. In both cases, you are being extreme, cutting out any possibility that other truths could exist. Atheism is simply a different manifestation of the same arrogance that fundamentalists use to condemn people to hell.

Both sides use the argument from ignorance, which is why I think I'm agnostic, but I'd like to believe in God (if for no other reason, it would give life more meaning for me):

Quote:
Arguments from ignorance can easily find their way into debates over the Existence of God. This, both from the theistic side (e.g. "You don't have evidence that my God doesn't exist, so regardless of my evidence - he exists!") and from the atheistic side (e.g. "You don't have evidence that your God exists, therefore he doesn't exist, regardless of whether I actually possess Evidence of absence"). Again, it is important to note that it is a fallacy to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, since this does not satisfactorily address issues of philosophic burden of proof. In other words, a complete lack of evidence either way results in agnosticism, thus each side must prove that they have satisfied their own burden for providing proof (evidence).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


Agnosticism and atheism aren't necessarily incompatible. Agnosticism is the belief that the existence or non-existence of gods cannot be known with certainty. Atheism is non-belief in gods. Many atheists are agnostic and vice versa.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:29 pm  
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http://imgur.com/xXuNC

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/

Grr laelia you beat me to it.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Mazeltov
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:34 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Joklem wrote:
edit: point of view of someone who was never indoctrinated -- the concept of an eternal all-powerful benevolent creator who is concerned with our well being and our after-life is as ridiculous as Santa Claus to us.


False.

Belief in a god is a superstition. But it is a superstition that comes easily and naturally to humans. No indoctrination is necessary.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:37 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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Ben Stein asked leading and retarded questions, starting with his very first one which he pretended to quote something and didn't quote it at all. That guy is a first class douchenugget.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:37 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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mazeltov wrote:
http://imgur.com/xXuNC

http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/

Grr laelia you beat me to it.


Ahh, I haven't seen that before, but I find that to be very insightful.

I definitely tend toward the theist agnostic then....but mostly because I'd really like to believe that there is a God.

However, looking at that, i've determined that most gnostic people are assholes. Because it's simply something that you cannot know for sure. So I think all atheists should consider themselves agnostic atheists.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:42 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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I'll sound like Aestu when I say this, but agnosticism is a cop out.

Here's a good analogy. Do you believe in leprechauns? Probably not.

Do you have any evidence that leprechauns don't exist? Of course not. Could you point to a single shred of evidence that they don't exist? No. Is it possible they do exist? Yes, and in fact, their existence, based on the legend of leprechauns, would mesh perfectly with reality - most tales of leprechauns have them as masters of staying undetected. Therefore, not only can you not prove they don't exist, but the tale of their existence seems to correlate to your experience relating to them perfectly.

But again; do you believe in leprechauns? No, you don't. The only reason you don't have the same feeling about God is because someone who you viewed as an authority figure as a child told you he exists. It's psychological, and nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:48 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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What I said had nothing to do with agnosticism, I merely said that it is fundamental to the human character to be inclined to believe in a god. Proof being: humans in every time and place have constructed their own notions of god independently of each other.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:50 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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Shouldn't the middle point on the graph be "I neither believe nor do not believe in god/gods because I can neither prove nor disprove the existance of a god/gods." instead of "I don't care"?


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:56 pm  
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Pinheaded Pissant
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Aestu wrote:
What I said had nothing to do with agnosticism, I merely said that it is fundamental to the human character to be inclined to believe in a god. Proof being: humans in every time and place have constructed their own notions of god independently of each other.


Wasn't referring to what you said here, was just responding to the topic of agnosticism, and used the phrase "is a cop out", which you are fond of.


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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:59 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Jushiro wrote:
Shouldn't the middle point on the graph be "I neither believe nor do not believe in god/gods because I can neither prove nor disprove the existance of a god/gods." instead of "I don't care"?


That would be at the top middle of the graph. The middle is neither gnostic or agnostic, which would be closer to "I neither believe nor do not believe in god/gods, but I might be able to prove their existence or non-existence."


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: atheism
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:04 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
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I used the wrong box, apparently o.O


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