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For the Founding Fathers, history as they knew it ended in 1776, and did not include the World Wars or anything else that has happened since then.

So, for them, history, meant classical history, and the history of Enlightenment Europe, especially England.


In answer to your question, Azelma:

Do you know who Marius was?
Do you know who Oliver Cromwell was?

Can you explain the relevance of those two questions to the Founding Fathers in writing Article II, Sec. 2, Clause I of the US Constitution, and the Third Amendment on the Bill of Rights?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

There's a lot more to what those guys do than "blowing things up." One of the reasons they need people who are a cut above for elite forces is because when they're in the field, the structured environment disappears. In a lot of cases, SeAL units are out of contact for extended periods under changing conditions. They could insert based on intel that turns out to be in error, and will have to independently assess their situation and mission and move on to a new course of action without input from their superiors. That is outside of the structure you're discussing, where in normal units new knowledge would be passed to the brass who would then assess the situation and pass down orders.

There's also a lot of math and science involved. Diving, parachuting, explosives, and advanced electronics are central to these guys do, and they learn how to do the diving and parachuting (if things have remained the same since I was in) without the aid of mechanical/electronic assistance because they have to know how to operate without things like dive computers should their equipment fail in the field. Add to that the need for people who can handle psychological stresses, and you're not looking at some hum-drum Gomer Pyle who needs to be told when to get up and when to go back to bed, and what to do in between those two points in the day.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Whether you're whacking someone by hurling a chipped rock at them, or firing a submachine gun, it adds up to the same thing.

How did Bradley put it? "We have a nation of nuclear geniuses and moral idiots"?

Again, I don't deny these people are very talented. That is exactly why I despise their organization. Because I see it as a waste of talent.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Side note - I met a girl at a party this weekend who had a tattoo of a quote from Dr. Strangelove on her arm.

^ didnt look it up

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

It's a volunteer basis. If someone that can make it in the SEALs wants to go into the SEALs, that's their choice.

Hating them because they're "wasting" their talent is really just you projecting Aestu.

I believe in the Aestu worldview, the only worthwhile place to use your talent is politics. Therefore anyone with considerable talent outside of politics is wasting it. I guess he's cool with talented scientists too.



I should have made a note to, my drunken state was not conducive to memorizing quotes for later research. I just remember reading it aloud and her informing me that it was from Dr. Strangelove. My focus was also on completely different girl at the party. Perhaps that too played a part in me not remembering it.

Slavery is illegal now. Every job could be described as "volunteering". But we don't refer to jobs as "volunteer", now do we?

"Volunteer" is really a euphemism for "mercenary". They do it because they get paid.

Military service being sold as mercenary work, instead of as a civic duty like voting and paying taxes, is very dangerous. Soldiers go from being loyal to the country they choose to serve...to whoever holds the purse paying their way through life.

That's not good for freedom as we know it.



Is it their "choice" that there's trillions and trillions of dollars extorted from the citizens of this country to pay for their upkeep?

Their "choice" is simply to get their share - but then again they try to influence other people's "choice" to give them this money, don't they?

That is what this thread is all about, isn't it? How the military is trying to influence "choice"?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'm truly not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

I mean, wouldn't that be the best of all worlds? The best minds are the ones making the big decisions and driving our civilization forward, as opposed to enriching themselves or blowing stuff up.

Or what do you mean? I don't understand.



I meant what I referenced in answer to your question.

remove all doubt...

I think JFK said it best:



It is worth pointing out that mentality has become so profound and entrenched that we do not even have a word for it anymore (I actually had to look the term up) and accept it as natural and appropriate and not the bizarre moral abberation payola was once seen as.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Partly sarcastic, partly serious. You are exactly right in that a perfect world all the greatest minds would be in places where they are making the big decisions and driving our civilization forward.

However, we don't live in a perfect world, and will never live in a perfect world. Therefore believing that anyone who chooses to use their talents elsewhere is "wasting them" is silly.

You're also speaking in absolutes, and ignoring the fact that really smart people with many other abilities exist.

For example...someone with an extremely high IQ could be a great politician and world leader....but they are also an extremely talented violinist. It turns out that music is their passion, and what truly makes them happy - not science or politics (though they would excel in either field if they chose to focus on it). Are they, therefore, "wasting" their talents if they are playing beautiful music at the highest level possible in one of the world's best, most competitive, symphonies night-in and night-out? Their playing truly impacts people in the audience with crisp notes, technical brilliance, and raw emotion as expressed through the violin - is this not worthwhile?

I wouldn't judge such a person as being useless to society because they preferred to pursue excellence in a field that doesn't necessarily shape the world.

Kinda like 'really, really smart people' who spend most of their adult life just going to school when they're wasting their skill and knowledge on reading books and playing games instead of actually doing something useful, earning money or working with their self-touted assets?

This is a complete and total projection.

It is you that draws this absolute distinction between "socialist utopia" and "oh well everything is shit and that won't change".

I am illustrating that it is not a choice between absolutes at all, but between many worlds that existed in the past and infinitely more that may exist into the future.

It is you that writes off my view as "you work in politics or science or you're mud".

Are you seriously contending, therefore, that I think every SEAL candidate should run for senator or go into R&D? No; my argument is eminently the opposite of absolutes - it is contemplating the many alternatives to the status quo. Same goes for business - I want to go into business one day because my appreciation for its productive potential is not an absolute - I understand the limitations that must be imposed.

When JFK talked about the "famine of ideas", "moral strength", and "lack of historic purpose", this is what he meant - the incredible narrowness of mind that regards the status quo vs utopia as absolutes.



People who exist only to blow up people and places that have no bearing on our lives and get by on military welfare are useless to society.

Are they making our lives better? Do they add to the worth of our society? You tell me.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

They shouldn't have rescued those hostages either. Jerks.

We will see.

---------------------------------

Azelma, to put it more simply: "historic purpose" literally means that the world need never be perfect for the work of making it more perfect to be of the highest importance.

Meeting or not meeting that obligation has definite consequences for our lives.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Probably fucking not. Those CIA spooks had no business being there.

See, you're falling for the propaganda. OH MAN THEY'RE HEROES THEY SHOT THE BAD GUYS. THEY RESCUED THE POOR HOSTAGES. You don't ask what was really going on and why.

Why were these people taken hostage in the first place? Could the entire situation have been avoided? Is it worth the nation's blood, reputation and money?

Or are they part of the problem?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.