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I'm well aware that I am where I am because of the work of an entire society, and my luck to have been born in a good situation.

Still, I'm interested in your thoughts. If me, Jubber, Eturnal, Weena, Usdk, Cally, etc. are all so ignorant, you could educate us, or at the very least me...by answering the questions I posed.

Curious that you don't want to.

The answer has been provided many times and ought not need to be provided even once because it is so obvious. Those who refuse to grasp it are willfully ignorant so I didn't see the point in spelling it out again.

History is the story of governments making a difference.

Different societies meet with different fates. Different governments and policies produce different futures for their people. Some things work, some don't. So the choices exist. And some are right and some are wrong. And if people and governments weren't at least somewhat successful in making choices, progress as we know it would not have happened. We'd still be back in the Dark Ages.

When you open up a history book, you never read about a great nation built by a bunch of people acting in their own self-interest. When you do read countries like that, they are always failed states, or at best flashes in the pan.

America is no exception; the American myth of the self-empowered individual is just that, a myth. Americans conveniently ignore the role of free and abundant natural resources, unionization, and farsighted national planning in building our society because they never read the history book but just drink the primetime TV koolaid, because it's easier. When they do read the history book, they just gawk at the cool pictures, or verbose equivalent, of Civil War / WWII glory, without asking how those wars fit into the big picture.

Our government in its current form can't legislate away our problems because the problems are social. And they are social precisely because of what we see in this very discussion which is a culture of stupidity and ignorance. A stupid and ignorant culture isn't going to accept wise policies until the status quo crashes out and the necessary steps are finally taken by an authoritarian successor-state. This has happened many times in history before.

All the people you named arrogantly think they know what's up and their ideas are right. But I've frequently asked them "well why do you believe this?" and I've never gotten a better answer than "because it's what I know is true". "Well what's your frame of reference?" From there the response is usually some kind of snark. These are people who are willfully ignorant because they are selfish and lazy, and the course they set for the nation will reflect that.

This is not new either, it has happened before.

So that is your answer. Will you find it adequate now that you need not find it "curious" I didn't answer before? Or will you continue to lazily diffidate as always? Shall I gaze into my crystal ball?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Good answer. And I find it adequate, though it has given me some follow up questions.


I guess, since the problems are social, you seem to be of the mind that it will implode in some way...then an authoritarian will rise from the ashes and progress will begin again...until stupidity and ignorance crumble society once again, and it must be rebuilt. I'll buy this.

Would you say that is an accurate depiction of your view of the cycle of humanity? Each time it crumbles, a new, slightly better, "closer", state will come along? Would you say that Greece --> Rome ---> America ---> Some other state (and yes I left out a ton of states in the middle haha) is how it works...each better than their predecessor in some respects, worse in others...but overall "closer" to that Utopian goal?





You've answered the question about the state and government. But I must ask you the harshest question of all:

Why should you or I care? Why should you or I be individually motivated to make things fairer for everyone? We can agree that there are ills in society, we can agree that there are systems that are clearly broken. You and I will never be able to fix them. We won't be the authoritarian who changes the country/world. We will be dead before ignorance causes society's collapse, before a benevolent authoritarian is able to take power and adjust the course of the nation and the world.

Given those facts. Given the idea of "survival of the fittest" -- doesn't it stand to reason that it's logical to say, "well, most people are stupid and can't help themselves. Most people are selfish and greedy. Most people don't really give a fuck about anything but themselves/their kin. If I give a fuck, I might be able to improve something in some small way...but then again I might just end up having a rougher existence and not really accomplishing my goal of making the world better for the next generations (or even the current ones). If I die, I'll be underground, and I won't matter anymore. Unless reincarnation is real, this is my one shot at life. Given all that, isn't it much safer and logical to say "fuck that uncertainty. Got mine."?

Yes.



Because that is the challenge of life. The purpose of life.



Do you think you are a special snowflake? Or do you think you are more or less banal and ordinary?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I've struggled, and continue to struggle with this. On the one hand, I want to help make things better and agree that it's a good purpose...I want to inspire change. But on the other hand I realize the harsh realities that likely I won't be able to, even if I give it all my effort. I also confess that giving all my effort would be extremely difficult for an uncertain payoff. I'm not connected enough, not smart enough, and not in the right place or time to do it. Perhaps had my life been different I would feel differently. Could I help someone else make change? Be a role player? Possibly. Could I eventually, through a variety of events be thrust into a position to make real change? Possibly.

But really, I think life is about making the best of the hand you're given.

I was initially dealt a good hand (as I think most white American males get a pretty good hand) with a few shitty cards (uneducated parents, lunatic mother, child of divorce, impoverished, physically abused by mother's boyfriends) - and I've worked to try to turn that hand around. I made a choice to move away from my mother to live with my father. I knew I was headed down a dark path if I stuck around.

I made decisions to save money on school knowing I'd have to take loans out, I took a riskier job at a small business because the payoff would be better. I decided to live in Chicago and not Cleveland. I've simply been focused on making sure I never have to worry about bills or food again, and that will always be my focus.

And now I want a family, and I want to make sure they'll never have to worry about bills or food. I'd like to take them on vacations and send my children to college. I'd like to retire comfortably, not luxuriously. That's all I want. Happiness.

If I die at an old age, maybe with a wife and some grandchildren by my side...I'll be content. That's all I want. I want to succeed where my parents failed miserably.



In the grand scheme of things, I am banal and ordinary. I won't affect anyone beyond my regular social/family circle.

In my own world though? Of course I'm a special snowflake. If they made a movie about me, I'd watch it...even if no one else would.

That is life. Pleading mortality isn't a valid excuse because everyone's got that problem.
Like I said you'll diffidate etc.



So let's say you're a speck of sand on a beach. A speck of black sand. Or a speck of yellow sand. Just like every other speck of sand on that beach.

What color is the beach?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I think you may have forgotten that I was attending college when I first started playing WoW and trolling the old official forums.



See, Spacey, even the git in question admits I've boiled it down correctly.

Someone else poke in here before it turns into four pages of Azelma attempting to have a reasonable conversation with an unreasonable person.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste