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I guess the thing I'm still struggling with Jubber...is why does Obama have to negotiate further on the ACA? Why?

Wasn't the bill negotiated already before it was passed? I remember it getting bastardized repeatedly to cave to republican demands.

It got fucking passed....and republicans have tried to get rid of it OVER and OVER again with no success. They fucking lost. Give it up...why are we still saying we need to "negotiate"? THERES NOTHING LEFT TO NEGOTIATE.

By "negotiate" the republicans want to defund the whole fucking thing. I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS


THEY LOST ITS A FUCKING LAWWWWWWWWWWW

We could say the same thing about gun rights, yet leftys wont "give it up", because there constituents feel its an issue they need to keep after.

"Its the law" is the worst argument I've ever heard for anything... There's a reason no party holds all 3 branches of government for very long, its because when ever one party has all the eggs everyone in the middle gets pissed off at what goes on. Unfortunately when things are spit rather than make compromises(you know what their job is)they just do nothing and play the blame/waiting game...

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There is nothing to compromise on. The Republicans aren't offering anything.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

This.

And saying "Okay, you might be right, but...", while vastly different from anything Republicans in DC have ever said about anything EVER, is NOT giving anyone an inch. That's how it's supposed to be from both sides. Always. The fact that you're trying to make it seem like a concession actually reinforces the liberal argument that Republicans are nothing but stonewallers and tantrum-throwing cry babies.

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Anything and everything is up for debate if you get enough people behind it, else women still wouldn't have the right to vote and gays couldn't marry (your position notwithstanding), albeit the methods for forcing said debate have evolved.

I will say that it seems a horrible gift to insurance companies, but probably better than nothing and likely worse than single payer. The idea probably would've been a lot better if it also forced insurance companies to be not-for-profit.

If every insurance agency had to be not profit, but everyone had to have at least catastrophic insurance with an annual check up rider, the federal government could act as the insurer of last resort, not unlike it acts as the lender of last resort and allowing it to effect cost pressure. Everyone would be at least covered for shtf stuff plus an annual checkup and the insurance companies could compete on what else they offer for membership, because they'd all be competing on price anyway and there'd be more than just "the market" with the capacity to affect costs. Still just pie in the sky.

edit: you know, because nobody has an opinion on what games are fun :p

I can debate with you over what color the sky is but it doesn't make me any less wrong when I say its yellow. The ACA has been passed by the legislative branch, signed by the executive branch, and was upheld by the judicial branch. It was hotly debated before these events happened (its also why we're lacking UHC and a public option because of, you know, compromise), but that part of the democratic process is over.

EDIT: You're right though, it is worse than single payer. The insurance industry is nothing but vampiric middlemen and the entire industry should be torn down, the ruins buried, and its legacy forgotten. This is a step in the right direction, but we still have a long way to go.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

This. So much this.

Look, I've said before...the ACA has some major flaws...but it does make some big steps in the right direction. Most republican constituents hate it because:

1) They don't understand it or how it works
2) It was part of Obama's platform and has a scary name like "Obamacare"
3) Republican leadership and FOX News is telling them to hate it
4) "Herr derr constitution gubment can't tell me to buy healthcare constitution constitution John Adams Founding Fathers contitution"

These are the invalid reasons to hate it. Look...have concerns about costs, that's fair. Have concerns about how ineffective it will largely be (irony being a lot of this is due to stuff that was stripped out to make republicans happy)...have concerns about "government overreach" (though, non morons will realize that you pay for uninsured americans already....)



Lastly...the silver bullet is....WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES??? Have Republicans proposed ANYTHING else to solve the healthcare issues in this country? Answer.

No. Fucking no.

So shut the fuck up. You lost, stop having a fucking temper tantrum and start doing your fucking jobs you fucking fucks.

You're couching it in terms of "right and wrong "(morally/ethically) which is a subjective debate that can't be won, when in reality it's an objective debate in terms of "can and can't" that has real consequences.

Right now it's a game of chicken to see who will piss off the swing voters less until the moment that one party can't tolerate the risks any longer or both parties no longer have the capacity to delay for other reasons.

Otherwise I agree, the way the Republicans are forcing the issue is shitty, but I could easily see the Democrats pulling a similar stunt for an issue of similar political value.

I'd love the normally center-of-right corporatist democrats to be so terrified of a rabid socialist base that they even bring things like massive tax hikes on the rich, universal healthcare, tripling the minimum wage, and SNAP benefits for all to the national discussion. I wouldn't like if they threatened a government shutdown over these things, but none of this is happening.


A game of chicken involves that both parties have something to lose. A more apt metaphor is if they're playing chicken but the republican car is slowly shedding parts. National blame against the republicans is growing daily and the longer that the ACA is here, the harder its going to be to repeal it (spoiler: they won't repeal it). At this point, we're talking about denying thousands of people the healthcare they've just received from Obamacare, which would tantamount to political suicide, no matter how angry and racist your base is.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

You keep quoting me like we disagree on some major point that was made.

If the Republicans had leverage, the POTUS wouldn't be taking the hard-line position of not negotiating.

As it stands the Republicans have the losing hand after going all in on the turn and are left holding out for a miracle on the river. They'll hold out until it's played.

Even if they had leverage, he still wouldn't negotiate. If he negotiated and gave concessions, what's stopping the republicans to attach demands to the next debt limit talks?

I'm not exaggerating when we're talking about the survival of democracy here. If Obama gives up anything, we're going to look at a repeat of this every time the debt limit comes up, causing us to be effectively ran by the Republican house, who gerrymanderred their way to victory and only control 1/2 out of the two branches that they can be elected to.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Well my insurance premiums are going to triple next year with my current plan.

So yeah, there's that.

In related news, the sky IS apparently falling

I could say some of the exact same things about a few other things, like the Patriot Act, NSA wiretapping, and the Debt Ceiling. I'm guessing we shouldn't try to end some of the ridiculous NSA shenanigans because people opposed to secret courts lost and it's a fucking law? I know you're not going to tell me that the Debt Ceiling passed, and the people who want to raise it lost and it's a fucking law. The "it's the law" argument is for dumbs. You guys aren't dumbs. Stop acting like dumbs.



I don't remember it that way at all, and it seems contrary to the reality of the situation. The democrats didn't need republican votes for jack shit, and when the time for super-majority votes did finally come, they used procedures to circumvent them. The "negotiations" and "bastardization" I remember were special deals like the Cornhusker Kickback designed to get red-to-purple state democrats to go along with a bill that became more unpopular the more people learned about it.

I also recall President Obama making a figurative deal with the devil by promising the insurance lobby a buttload of new, paying customers in exchange for an entire industry not opposing the train wreck his name is going to be tied to forever.



[sarcasm] Yes, those are exactly the reasons I've been talking about for the last few weeks. [/sarcasm] Does the pretentious "people only disagree with me/us because they're dumb" ever get old? The rest of us grew out of that shit in the 7th grade.



Oh yeah, I totally forgot "you're mean and you hate brown people," which also has nothing to do with wanting to repeal this law because it's complete shit. You know who's going to make it easy to repeal the ACA? The people who are going to start bitching because their insurance bills just doubled or tripled...



...and I'll bet that even working in food service our brother doesn't qualify for subsidies. So yeah, there's that. My favorite story about these people includes a quote that really explains modern left-wing thinking to me: "Of course, I want people to have health care," Vinson said. "I just didn't realize I would be the one who was going to pay for it personally." Charity is so much easier when it's other people's money.

It might be a shitty game of chicken, but if the "parts are falling off the car" anyway, it's not like republicans have a lot to lose. Never play chicken with someone who is suicidal...they have the competitive advantage. I wonder how long it will take President Obama to realize that and agree to give everyone the one-year extension he's already given his pals and make congress abide by the same rules as the rest of the country just like republicans asked for with the last continuing resolution?

Because that's what's going to happen. The only question right now is how long it's going to take.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Except you couldn't say the same thing about all those other laws. Nobody is attaching a PATRIOT Act repeal to an unrelated budget battle. Nobody is trying to put a rider curtailing NSA wiretaps on, say, tornado relief to red states. There are bad laws that are still THE LAW. They may be unpalatable to everyone, but short of a court order or targeted dismantling, they're gonna stick around. But I do actually like the sound of that. Next time there's a vote on hurricane relief to the Carolinas, we should try to tack on a PATRIOT Act repeal. You know, because fuck you or something. Oh, you don't want to entertain my ridiculous unrelated claims? YOU'RE NOT NEGOTIATING WITH ME IN GOOD FAITH.

"It's the law" is the succinct way of saying "fight this with a repeal attempt (and keep losing) instead of turning to extortion, you fucks."

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh